Subject:
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Re: Nature of man (was Re: Problems with Christianity)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 21 Dec 2000 22:46:13 GMT
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Viewed:
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793 times
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The only time I have hostility towards Christians (or any other religion) is when
they won't shut up and leave me alone when I request it. Beyond that, you can
call it bemusement, I guess.
SRC wrote:
> In retrospect, perhaps I should not have responded to David's post.
> I certainly didn't expect to spend this much time here. :-)
> I'll do my best to answer questions posed to me, and I don't mind
> civilized debate, but I don't see how sweeping generalizations are of
> much use. I am baffled by your _apparent_ hostility Tom - I'm guessing
> that others professing Christianity have offended you? I'll post a brief
> response to this branch, and let you make the call on anything more specific.
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tom Stangl writes:
> > Dave Schuler wrote:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Brown writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tom Stangl writes:
> > > > > But according to others in this group, man doesn't HAVE free will -
> > > > > God knows everything anyone will do from cradle to grave - where
> > > > > is the free will in that?
>
> I don't know whom the "others" are, (or the group for that matter)
> but I see no Biblical basis for saying man doesn't have free will.
> Quite the opposite in fact.
An omnipotent, omniscient God removes free will from the equation. If your God is
not omnipotent/omniscient, how can you elevate him to Godhood? At most he would
simply be one/many steps higher on the ladder than us. That wouldn't make him
worth worshipping to me.
> > > > Well, I can't speak for others, but here is one take on it...
> > > > If I choose to (X), or to not (X), how does God knowing ahead of
> > > > time which I will choose affect my making the choice?
> > >
> > > Right, but Tom isn't just saying that God decides in advance which
> > > way we'll turn out; Tom is asserting, I believe, that in order for the
> > > outcome of an event to be known in advance with absolute certainty, that
> > > event must be pre-set in some way, and therefore freewill is an illusion.
> >
> > Yep, that about pegged it. If you believe in an omniscient, omnipotent
> > God, you're kidding yourself if you don't think the ENTIRE game is rigged
> > from femtosecond one to the end. Free Will is nothing but an illusion.
>
> We're bounded by one point in time - God is not. He can "see" any and
> all points in the past, present, and future. Imagine if you could travel
> back in time one minute (like Einstein in Back to the Future, only backwards
> instead of forwards). You would know that this post would appear on your
> screen, that I'd posted a reply to your post, that Leanne was going to walk
> past your desk, that the phone in the next office was going to ring, etc.
> Your knowledge of these occurrences would only change them if you had the
> ability to affect them and chose to do so. You might decide not to read
> this post for example. :-) Then again, you'd know you had jumped back in
> time too, so then you'd know… Hence the paradox and interesting Sci-Fi
> movies. :-) By the way, what numerical prefix is "femto" anyway?
So you believe in an omniscient God, but not omnipotent?
> > I believe being "moral" does not require some book telling us what's "Moral".
>
> True - David and I are discussing upon what we base our morals.
> Upon what do you base yours?
On what I FEEL is right, not what others tell me. I've stated my general beliefs
on this before. I personally think Man is inherently good, and agree with others
as to the idea of society bringing about the Morals necessary for society to
continue, without the intervention of Religion.
Note, mind you, I am NOT saying Christian Morals are bad, I'm simply saying they
were nothing new, and coopting them as a Christian Idea is selfish and silly.
> > …refusing to stop pushing our religion of choice upon others
> > when asked to desist...
>
> Am I pushing?
No, YOU are not. Others in here are a bit too pushy for my liking.
Generally, when someone tells me what their religious bent is, I either keep my
mouth shut, or leave it at "that's nice". If they then try to preach to/convert
me, I give a reply that basically says "that's nice FOR YOU". If they can't take
a hint at that point, I get just as pushy back ;-)
Here is how I generally see the issue from MY point of view:
Person A brings up a Christian/religious point/interpretation in daily life.
Person B says "sorry, doesn't wash with me, I'm agnostic/atheist".
Person A GENERALLY then starts pestering Person B about their Lack of Faith.
IN GENERAL, rarely does the agnostic/atheist do the pushing, except when defending
themselves from the Morally Righteous who simply assume they MUST be wrong about
not having the same faith.
> Have you asked me to stop?
Nope ;-)
> Am I mistakenly responding
> to something you intended for another? Is this post pointless?
That could spawn another thread. Oh wait, there already ARE several threads that
have some internal threads about whether arguing anything is pointless or not ;-)
Here's my somewhat final word on this:
People of Faith "have faith" that they KNOW the Truth, and nothing others say will
change their mind (not a single Christian in here has even remotely acknowledged
that Buddhists or other religions MAY be right and Christianity wrong).
I "have faith" that Christians/you-name-it are wrong, and NOTHING they can say
will change my mind.
At that point, it is Faith against faith, and debating it is a wash. But that
won't stop me from poking at people that won't stop poking at me.
--
| Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp
| Please do not associate my personal views with my employer
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