Subject:
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Re: Problems with Christianity
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 17 Dec 2000 23:09:14 GMT
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Viewed:
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712 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Steve Chapple writes:
> > 1. The problem with looking at God's existence from a purely scientific
> > point of view is that it doesn't work.
>
> Already established and debated. You're right.
>
> > You could prove the existence of God or love in a court, but not a lab.
>
> Oh? That's new. I either doubt your conclusion or have a
> different definition of "prove" than you. Probably the latter.
ie. Beyond a reasonable doubt. Witnesses describe what they have
experienced and any corroborating (or contradictory) physical evidence
is examined, etc. Theoretically I could present my "Case for Christ"
to you, but while it's proven as far as I'm concerned, you probably
wouldn't concur. I don't think it would be fair to say that I hadn't
proved my case just because I hadn't proved it to you though, as the
key thing that would be missing is an impartial judge.
> > 2. Christ's significance isn't limited to just what He said and did.
> > You speak of Him in the past tense - it's not what He did - it's who He IS.
>
> Point missed. Christ, no matter how you look at Him, is finite.
Christ isn't finite - neither are you for that matter. Your earthly body
is finite, but your soul - all that you really are - is going to continue
on for eternity. It's up to you whether you spend it in heaven or
hell - I can't "debate you into heaven".
> …People who lived 3,000 years ago had no chance…
You're not responsible for their souls - just yours.
> > 3. I would say that where you spend eternity is of utmost importance.
> > Christ spoke more about hell than He did about heaven. The answers
> > to your questions are in the Bible.
>
> Again, this is something I simply have moral issue with. I don't believe
> in permanent reward or punishment. It just doesn't "jive" with me.
Again, I'm trying to lead you to the living water[1], but even if I
succeed, I can't make you drink.
> > 4. This country (consider me an American for the moment) was
> > founded on Biblical standards/principles/values.
>
> Agree.
>
> > It's the very turning away from
> > God that is the root cause of the problems (and problems is a rather
> > drastic understatement) that are destroying our nation from within.
>
> I lost you.
> #1. Prove that the problems are caused by turning away from God.
> #2. Prove that our problems are any more worse now than they were
> 200 years ago. I think they're just different. And some I doubt I'd
> even consider problems, that no doubt you would.
When we turn away from God and focus instead on ourselves - what we
want - what feels good to us - that's selfishness. The dramatic increase
in divorce, drug abuse, STDs, theft, abortion, murder, adultery,
homosexuality, lying, assault, child and/or spouse abuse, etc. is the
result and the evidence.
> > You said yourself that this fourth point is your main focus; I have a
> > basic question for you - If you do not base your ethical principles on
> > the Bible, upon what do you base them?
>
> Sorry, but I think I went over this in quite a bit of detail.
You went on a great length, but I confess I didn't understand - not only
what exactly you were proposing, but how it could work.
> …Hence, my morality is based on what I want and what I think others want…
If everyone does whatever they want, isn't that anarchy?
There's a passage in Philippians chapter 2 that I think is
particularly relevant to your query:
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility
consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not
only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very
nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found
in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to
death-- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the
highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on
earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus
Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[1] John chapter 4
9 The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan
woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with
Samaritans. ) 10 Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and
who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he
would have given you living water."
13 Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
14 but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed,
the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up
to eternal life."
25 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming.
When he comes, he will explain everything to us." 26 Then Jesus
declared, "I who speak to you am he."
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Message has 2 Replies:
 | | Re: Problems with Christianity
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| (...) Ah. As I suspected. Our definitions of 'prove' differ. To take a rather contravertial case, did O.J. Simpson commit murder? Both sides presented their cases, and O.J. won. Does that prove that he didn't commit murder? Perhaps he 'proved' it to (...) (24 years ago, 18-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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| (...) Already established and debated. You're right. (...) I'm sure Dave! would correct you by saying science can't "PROVE" anything, but that's just semantics :) (...) Oh? That's new. I either doubt your conclusion or have a different definition of (...) (24 years ago, 15-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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