Subject:
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Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 12 Mar 2000 12:22:28 GMT
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Reply-To:
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lpieniazek@{IHateSpam}novera.com
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Viewed:
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1767 times
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James Brown wrote:
> Where exactly did I start trying to prove anything? All I have said is that
> lack of evidence does not necessarily indicate non-existance. Occam's razor
> notwithstanding.
Agreed.
> Maybe it'll help, and get less of a knee-jerk "religion is evil"
> response if I take God out of the sentence:
> Lacking evidence either way, claiming to know X doesn't exist is as false as
> claiming X does exist.
Also agreed. But in order for X to actually matter, X has to have some
effect on reality, or it's just ornamentation on a perfectly valid
theory that explains things without X. In this case, the christian god
has no effect (in this reality) that is not satisfactorily explained
without it.
>
> > > >
> > > > Christianity as a whole can't be measured by those bigots and those
> > > > bigots alone. But when a system or moral seems to consistenty produce
> > > > flawed people who wreak havoc, perhaps we have to ask if that system
> > > > itself is flawed.
> > >
> > > c/Christianity/America
> > > c/Christianity/Atheism
> > > c/Christianity/Capitolism
> >
> > Go ahead and try to prove that America/Atheism/Capitalism (I shan't
> > defend Capitol-ism as I think there isn't much good coming from the US
> > Capitol these days :-) ) consistently produces flawed people. *Produces*
> > mind you, not just suffers to exist.
>
> The incidence of violent crime in America, over the past 200 years. Or is that
> "suffered to exist"?
I can argue this two ways.
1. There has always been and will always be some incidence of crime in
any society in which free will is allowed to exist. Getting rid of all
crime requires a level of monitoring and a level of incorruptibility
that cannot be practically achieved. Thus, crime in and of itself is not
an indictment of a particular societal organization. There is no utopia.
America is better, overall, than anywhere else (except Hong Kong before
it was taken over by the ChiComs). I've discussed why in other threads
2. The onus is on you to show that violent crime is a direct result of
the characteristics or morals of America.
OK three ways
3. I don't mean "America" as it exists today, but rather the idealized
america as envisioned by the founding fathers. We've deviated and need
to correct. It IS possible to get back there.
Regarding #1, Christianity gets a pass IF you can show that it's a
better religion than any other and IF you can show that a few bad apples
are all that christianity produces, and that those bad apples aren't
really christians.
Regarding #2, I'll remind you that I have shown already why flawed
people are a direct result of the characteristics or morals of
Christianity. "I am my brother's keeper" is a flawed moral as it implies
free goods.
Regarding #3, you can't implement a perfect socialist society, as
socialism just flat out cannot be made to work. It's the areas that are
NOT socialist that let mixed societies limp along. Again, see other
threads. And christianity is at root a socialist (and morally flawed
system)
> If you insist. I disagree, but that's obvious by now. I think you've got a
> very flawed idea of christianity, though. What criteria are you using to
> define christian?
Acceptance of a "loving" god that forgives all regardless of worth, and
acceptance of the principle of from each according to ability, to each
according to need (that is "you are your brother's keeper")
--
Larry Pieniazek - lpieniazek@mercator.com - http://my.voyager.net/lar
http://www.mercator.com. Mercator, the e-business transformation company
fund Lugnet(tm): http://www.ebates.com/ ref: lar, 1/2 $$ to lugnet.
Note: this is a family forum!
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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| (...) I could argue this further, but we'd be getting away from traceable cause and effect, and getting really esoteric. (which is to say, getting into questions like 'Where does the concept of God come from' and 'Does the socio-political effect of (...) (25 years ago, 13-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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| (...) Ok, did some digging of my own, and find myself hoist on a petard, presumably my own. My example died, but the point is still extant. Simply because science (objective rational evidence) does not provide for somethings existance does not mean (...) (25 years ago, 11-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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