Subject:
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Re: Goodness of Man? (was: Re: Merry Christmas from the Libertarian Party
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 2 Jan 2000 02:00:16 GMT
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Viewed:
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1720 times
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On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 23:19:43 GMT, Larry Pieniazek <lar@voyager.net>
wrote:
By the way, larry, your line lengths are too long.
> See, where Libertopia differs from other -topias is fundamental. First,
> we are not claiming that it's perfect. Instead, we claim there IS no
> perfection in society. There always will be situations where things turn
> out unfairly (is a freak tornado "fair"?) or where the guilty
> inadvertantly walk free. It's merely a shorthand for a society in which
> rights are paramount. That's a definitional thing. You can't use the
> word unless that's what you mean, unless you are deliberately trying to
> be confusing or obstructionistic.
My response to that would be "nothing is fair - but some things are
more fair than others". And I personally believe that it is a good to
make this society as fair as we can afford.
Just as explanation, of course, since I don't expect either of us can
sway each other (if I had been constitutionally able to be swayed
toward the LP, I'd have been so by now. Too many _good_ debaters have
tried..).
> Second, and this is one I've convinced myself of, but which almost no
> one else agrees with, human nature does NOT need to change in order for
> us to successfully move in the Libertopian direction. People already are
> good enough, honest enough, industrious enough for it to work. Pockets
> of it exist today, at least in limited form. I have no idea how to
> convince the rest of you of that point except to repeat my assertion,
> which is rather a poor debating technique, and by giving examples. But
> no example list can be exhaustive, it can't be a definitive proof.
What you're saying is that _some_ people are $VIRTUE enough for it to
work, so therefore everyone (statistical everyone) is.
What the rest of us is saying, is that many people seem not be $VIRTUE
enough for it to work. A statistically significant fraction of the
population, even.
> So I always try to turn it round. Why does everyone else believe people
> are bad? What a downer if that's what you really think?
No kidding is it a downer. I suspect this realisation is a big part of
puberty depression.
> Why not believe
> in the best of people, expect it, and deal with it if you don't get it,
> instead of expecting the worst.
>
> When I mail someone a check, I expect they are going to be good for the
> goods I've won at auction, and I'll deal with the consequences if they
> aren't.
I always believe the best of a person. I'll also always believe the
worst of people. It's the way group dynamics work. Unfortunately.
Jasper
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