Subject:
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Re: Preaching to the Choir
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 9 Aug 2004 00:47:49 GMT
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Viewed:
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1694 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Chris Phillips wrote:
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Anyone who has read my LUGNET posts has seen countless occasions where I
have retracted my own statements and/or evolved my opinion about one topic
or another.
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This only indicates that you hadn’t considered all of the ramifications of a
particular issue.
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...Or that I maintain an open mind, even when I am already fairly convinced of
my viewpoint. Are you so arrogant that you believe it is possible for a human
being to achieve total, certain understanding of these issues?
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Most of the issues I argue I have examined to the Nth
degree; my only hope here is to somehow, through this imperfect medium, to
communicate my views and use those who disagree as a sort of sounding board,
to check for leaks, as it were. I learn a lot, but rarely does that affect
my overall viewpoint.
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Listen to yourself- you have already considered the issues to the Nth degree,
and you only wish to communicate your views. Which one of us is being
close-minded again?
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And unlike George Bush, I try to never make a statement without
backing it up with fact.
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Well, Chris, how about that very statement for one? How do you know that
George Bush makes statements that he never tries to back up with facts?
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He told me so, but then he wouldn’t explain why.
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If a subsequent post calls my opinion into
question, I clarify what I have said.
I am not sure that you could say the same thing. (How many words have you
personally expended claiming that same-sex marriage will destroy the
institution without any backup
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I have provided plenty of backup; it’s just that people like you aren’t
willing to listen.
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Ah, there it is: “people like me.” John, you don’t even know me.
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If you have a given institution, say marriage, that is
defined as the union of 1 man and 1 woman, and you change that definition
to something other than that, you have, in essence, forever altered that
institution, and thus destroyed it. It ceases to be what it once was.
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Oh, alright. Now I understand. Simply to change it means you destroy it. This
still doesn’t explain why that is a bad thing, and why you were so willing to go
around in circles for weeks on end on the topic. As you are trying to do once
again.
Don’t even start, John. I’ll come back here in late November and we can discuss
it over a hot toddy.
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I think you will find that these apparent dodges are due to miscommunication
and time issues rather than deliberate attempts at obfuscation. As I have
said previously-- my wish is to clarify positions.
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Well I have no time to explain my position to you. But I am sure that once you
examine it to the Nth degree, you will know exactly what I am trying to say.
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I hate generalizations as much as the next guy,
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Not me. I think generalizations can be very useful at times.
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Generalizations such as “people like you...” That explains a lot, John. Thank
you for clarifying.
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but I’ve seen it happen quite a few times.
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I would be interested to see a specific example.
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Well, not too long ago, I sought to understand how someone could actually
support the Bush administration with all the lies and threats to democracy they
represent. This was the clearest answer I could get:
http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=23943
(Sorry to single anyone out, but I have better things to do than let John waste
my time in another go-nowhere debate; hence my original post. This was the
first example I could think of enough search terms to find.)
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Furthermore, I believe that o-t.d is a place where a number of articulate,
well-informed voices congregate to run in circles with one another. I fear
that this board has become a tarpit that expends all of our energies where
they have the least possible effect. Hence my call to everyone here to take
the message and the honest debating style out beyond our insular community.
John, I encourage you to do the same.
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To join those articulate, well-informed voices? ;-)
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Vigorous debate is the foundation of a
democratic society, and all voices should be heard.
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Even the ones that aren’t articulate and well-informed. Sorry, I couldn’t
resist acknowledging the backhanded slight:-)
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If that is how you choose to parse my words, you may take whatever insults you
wish away from this. That was not my intention, but perhaps it is just an added
bonus.
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I still read LUGNET, and I don’t mean to suggest that anyone should stop
posting here, but this is an important time for us to get the good word
out beyond our small sphere.
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What is that “good word”? Are you talking about Liberalism in general?
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I have spent a lot of time over the past four years examining the
neo-conservative takeover of the US government.
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Have you spent any time considering the shift towards conservativism of the
general populace? “Takeover”? Are we still not a representative democracy?
If not hysterical.
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by the
deception and scare tactics that have been used as excuses to erode personal
liberties
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What personal liberties of yours have been eroded?
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Our e-mail and telephone conversations are routinely scanned by the government,
as are the list of books that we purchase or borrow at the public library. US
citizens and foreign nationals are taken into custody and held without charges
or due process of law for years on end.
These are violations of my rights and yours, even if we personally have not (to
our knowledge) had them violated. Yet.
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and to ignore international law.
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International law does not and never will trump US law. That is why being a
member in an international body such as the UN is a bad idea.
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To ignore international standards of conduct is to become a rogue nation. That
is exactly what the United States has become, and we are going to get our
collective ass kicked by the entire world community if we don’t start behaving
like a civilized people.
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If Bush/Cheney take the election
in November, I’d move to Canada except they’ll likely invade there next.
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You are hysterical.
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Or perhaps sarcastic.
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What if I could guarantee you that the US wouldn’t
invade Canada (personally, I’d vote to invade Mexico first-- better beaches
and weather:-) or I’d give you $1,000,000 (I’m sure I could find a bookie who
would take 100,000 to 1 odds for my $10 on that) Would you still go?
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Only if you promise not to go there too.
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There has never been a more important time for people to engage in
enlightened debate about the direction our country is taking.
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Until the next election;-)
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Only if Bush, Inc. somehow manage to win this one.
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The “good word” to which I refer is the Truth. The Truth which the
Bush/Cheney administration seem to hold in contempt, and which the American
People deserve to hear. The only way to find Truth is to shine a light into
dark corners, wherever they might be found. We’ve shone a lot of light (and
thrown a lot of heat) here, so perhaps it is time to take that light out
from underneath the bushel, as it were.
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I really don’t understand what you are talking about. You really do sound
like a Crusader, with Truth in your pocket. I thought the whole point of
being a Liberal was that there are no absolutes; yet here you are, using
religious language and metaphors, envoking religious ideas in an effort to
convert others to your way of thinking.
I am all for seeking Truth, but I am at least wise enough to know that it
won’t be found in politics.
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Perhaps not. Nor, apparently will it be gleaned from any interaction with you,
sir. Thank you for wasting my time.
- Chris.
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Preaching to the Choir
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| (...) You make it sound as if there is something wrong with coming to a conclusion about anything. Is it so hard to accept that I can consider a POV and finally reject it? It is as if your definition of "close-minded" is anyone who doesn't see the (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Preaching to the Choir
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| In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Chris Phillips wrote: (snip) (...) This only indicates that you hadn't considered all of the ramifications of a particular issue. Most of the issues I argue I have examined to the Nth degree; my only hope here is to (...) (20 years ago, 8-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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