Subject:
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Re: Preaching to the Choir
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 9 Aug 2004 06:14:44 GMT
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Viewed:
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1740 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Chris Phillips wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Chris Phillips wrote:
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Anyone who has read my LUGNET posts has seen countless occasions where I
have retracted my own statements and/or evolved my opinion about one topic
or another.
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This only indicates that you hadn’t considered all of the ramifications of a
particular issue.
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...Or that I maintain an open mind, even when I am already fairly convinced
of my viewpoint. Are you so arrogant that you believe it is possible for a
human being to achieve total, certain understanding of these issues?
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Most of the issues I argue I have examined to the Nth
degree; my only hope here is to somehow, through this imperfect medium, to
communicate my views and use those who disagree as a sort of sounding board,
to check for leaks, as it were. I learn a lot, but rarely does that affect
my overall viewpoint.
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Listen to yourself- you have already considered the issues to the Nth degree,
and you only wish to communicate your views. Which one of us is being
close-minded again?
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You make it sound as if there is something wrong with coming to a conclusion
about anything. Is it so hard to accept that I can consider a POV and finally
reject it? It is as if your definition of “close-minded” is anyone who doesn’t
see the Truth in your (obviously) correct perspective. Is it not possible to
agree to disagree?
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And unlike George Bush, I try to never make a statement without
backing it up with fact.
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Well, Chris, how about that very statement for one? How do you know that
George Bush makes statements that he never tries to back up with facts?
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He told me so, but then he wouldn’t explain why.
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Well, if there is anything that is unhelpful here in this NG, it is sarcasm.
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If a subsequent post calls my opinion into
question, I clarify what I have said.
I am not sure that you could say the same thing. (How many words have you
personally expended claiming that same-sex marriage will destroy the
institution without any backup
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I have provided plenty of backup; it’s just that people like you aren’t
willing to listen.
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Ah, there it is: “people like me.” John, you don’t even know me.
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People like you who have claimed that I haven’t backed up my position. Of
course I don’t know you, but that is not to say that I couldn’t predict a lot of
how you feel about politics, though...
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If you have a given institution, say marriage, that is
defined as the union of 1 man and 1 woman, and you change that definition
to something other than that, you have, in essence, forever altered that
institution, and thus destroyed it. It ceases to be what it once was.
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Oh, alright. Now I understand. Simply to change it means you destroy it.
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See, now I can’t ascertain whether you are serious or being sarcastic.
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This still doesn’t explain why that is a bad thing, and why you were so
willing to go around in circles for weeks on end on the topic. As you are
trying to do once again.
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Why don’t you explain why changing the definition of marriage is a good thing.
Again I defy you to come up with an alternative definition. Nobody will.
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Don’t even start, John. I’ll come back here in late November and we can
discuss it over a hot toddy.
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I think you will find that these apparent dodges are due to miscommunication
and time issues rather than deliberate attempts at obfuscation. As I have
said previously-- my wish is to clarify positions.
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Well I have no time to explain my position to you. But I am sure that once
you examine it to the Nth degree, you will know exactly what I am trying to
say.
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I hate generalizations as much as the next guy,
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Not me. I think generalizations can be very useful at times.
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Generalizations such as “people like you...” That explains a lot, John.
Thank you for clarifying.
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See above. You have misunderstood my meaning, Chris.
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but I’ve seen it happen quite a few times.
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I would be interested to see a specific example.
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Well, not too long ago, I sought to understand how someone could actually
support the Bush administration with all the lies and threats to democracy
they represent. This was the clearest answer I could get:
http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=23943
(Sorry to single anyone out, but I have better things to do than let John
waste my time in another go-nowhere debate; hence my original post. This was
the first example I could think of enough search terms to find.)
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Well, instead of considering “all the lies and threats to democracy” the Bush
administration represents, why not laser in on specifics, and then we can go
from the general hysteria of such an accusation to discussing particular issues
in detail.
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Furthermore, I believe that o-t.d is a place where a number of articulate,
well-informed voices congregate to run in circles with one another. I fear
that this board has become a tarpit that expends all of our energies where
they have the least possible effect. Hence my call to everyone here to
take the message and the honest debating style out beyond our insular
community.
John, I encourage you to do the same.
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To join those articulate, well-informed voices? ;-)
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Vigorous debate is the foundation of a
democratic society, and all voices should be heard.
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Even the ones that aren’t articulate and well-informed. Sorry, I couldn’t
resist acknowledging the backhanded slight:-)
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If that is how you choose to parse my words, you may take whatever insults
you wish away from this. That was not my intention, but perhaps it is just
an added bonus.
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I didn’t say that you intentionally insulted me initially (note my emoticons),
but how is one to take the “added bonus” comment?
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I still read LUGNET, and I don’t mean to suggest that anyone should stop
posting here, but this is an important time for us to get the good word
out beyond our small sphere.
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What is that “good word”? Are you talking about Liberalism in general?
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I have spent a lot of time over the past four years examining the
neo-conservative takeover of the US government.
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Have you spent any time considering the shift towards conservativism of the
general populace? “Takeover”? Are we still not a representative democracy?
If not hysterical.
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by the
deception and scare tactics that have been used as excuses to erode
personal liberties
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What personal liberties of yours have been eroded?
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Our e-mail and telephone conversations are routinely scanned by the
government, as are the list of books that we purchase or borrow at the public
library.
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Are you claiming that these actions began at the behest of the Bush
Administration?
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US citizens and foreign nationals are taken into custody and held
without charges or due process of law for years on end.
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For one who hates generalities, you use them a lot. Specifics.
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These are violations of my rights and yours, even if we personally have not
(to our knowledge) had them violated. Yet.
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Again, without knowing specifics, I would draw no conclusions.
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and to ignore international law.
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International law does not and never will trump US law. That is why being a
member in an international body such as the UN is a bad idea.
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To ignore international standards of conduct is to become a rogue nation.
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Whose standards would those be? Sudan’s? China’s? North Korea’s? To what
standards are you referring? If ignoring their standards means being a rogue,
then so be it!
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That is exactly what the United States has become, and we are going to get
our collective ass kicked by the entire world community if we don’t start
behaving like a civilized people.
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Again, I have no idea what you are talking about! The entire world community is
going to kick our collective ass? If we don’t behave like civilized people???
You mean like, “if I don’t like your country, I’ll slaughter your innocent
civilians type civility”? Or the “women are objects in our society” civility?
I could go on and on! Please! We are among the most civilized people on this
planet, and in terms of any society in history wielding supreme power, the
ultimate example of civility!
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If Bush/Cheney take the election
in November, I’d move to Canada except they’ll likely invade there next.
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You are hysterical.
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Or perhaps sarcastic.
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Ah, so you were kidding?
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What if I could guarantee you that the US wouldn’t
invade Canada (personally, I’d vote to invade Mexico first-- better
beaches and weather:-) or I’d give you $1,000,000 (I’m sure I could find a
bookie who would take 100,000 to 1 odds for my $10 on that) Would you still
go?
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Only if you promise not to go there too.
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Canada isn’t big enough for the both of us, eh?
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There has never been a more important time for people to engage in
enlightened debate about the direction our country is taking.
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Until the next election;-)
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Only if Bush, Inc. somehow manage to win this one.
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The “good word” to which I refer is the Truth. The Truth which the
Bush/Cheney administration seem to hold in contempt, and which the American
People deserve to hear. The only way to find Truth is to shine a light
into dark corners, wherever they might be found. We’ve shone a lot of
light (and thrown a lot of heat) here, so perhaps it is time to take that
light out from underneath the bushel, as it were.
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I really don’t understand what you are talking about. You really do sound
like a Crusader, with Truth in your pocket. I thought the whole point of
being a Liberal was that there are no absolutes; yet here you are, using
religious language and metaphors, envoking religious ideas in an effort to
convert others to your way of thinking.
I am all for seeking Truth, but I am at least wise enough to know that it
won’t be found in politics.
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Perhaps not. Nor, apparently will it be gleaned from any interaction with
you, sir. Thank you for wasting my time.
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Unfortunately, the sediment is mutual. Have fun storming the conservatives.
JOHN
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Message has 4 Replies:
 | | Re: Preaching to the Choir
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| (...) We may have to. My definition of close-minded is to be so entrenched in your own point of view that you do not consider the possibility that any other point of view could have merit. Your endless circuitous logic, well demonstrated in this (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
| | | Re: Preaching to the Choir
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| (...) I think we'll have to let the arguments settle to the bottom and accumulate a bit before we sift through your sediments. We don't want to precipitate anything new at this point. -->Bruce<-- Miner in Geology (written as intended) :-) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
| | | Re: Preaching to the Choir
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| (...) Pardon? I recall alternative definitions being presented to you here. What exactly do you mean by "nobody will?" I also recall reading explanations to you of why such redefinition would be a "good thing" and you merely dismissed them. Can you (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
| | | Re: Preaching to the Choir
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| (...) Well... If presently: "marriage is defined as the union of one consenting adult male and one consenting adult female" And proposed: "marriage is defined as the union of two consenting adults" (Assuming they're human, US citizens [is that (...) (20 years ago, 10-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Preaching to the Choir
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| (...) ...Or that I maintain an open mind, even when I am already fairly convinced of my viewpoint. Are you so arrogant that you believe it is possible for a human being to achieve total, certain understanding of these issues? (...) Listen to (...) (20 years ago, 9-Aug-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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