Subject:
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Re: Holy crap! (was Re: The partisian trap in California)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:11:01 GMT
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Viewed:
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1130 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
> > A: I have the belief that God does not exist.
> > B: I do not have the belief that God exists.
> >
> > Statement A is a declaration of belief. Statement B is a declaration of the
> > lack of belief. The lack of a thing can hardly be said to be equivalent to
> > the thing itself.
> And we get into the grammar. It's the noun that's being defined--not the
> verb--grammar rules do not necessarily follow the sequence of the line.
>
> "I have a belief that there's no God" or "I do not have a belief that God
> exists"
>
> It's the noun "I" that "has", or the noun "I" that does "not have".
Right, but by that same token, consider this:
In statement A, the conditional thing that does or does not exist is God. In
statement B, the conditional thing that does or does not exist is belief.
> It's the noun "God" that "is" there (exists), or the noun "God" that "is not"
> there (does not exist).
>
> The word "Belief" is the connecting verb, and is not modified.
I disagree, believe it or not! 8^) I think you're picking the wrong verb to
modify, relative to the speaker's intent.
In statements A & B, the relevant (implicit) verb is "do" in the phrase "I
do/do-not believe." In statement A, that verb is not modified, but in statement
B, it is modified by the adverb "not."
> Grammar pretty much works like an algebra equation
>
> I + have =(believe) no God
>
> I + no have =(believe) God
I can accept that diagram, but don't you see that it demonstrates clearly the
difference between the two statements?
> > So here's my original claim once again:
> >
> > A: I believe that God does not exist.
> > B: I do not believe that God exists.
> You go from the premise that the word 'believe' is the one modified--verbs
> aren't modified--it's the nouns
Come again? Adverbs certainly modify verbs, and "not" is an adverb.
> We skip the interm words, but properly constructed,
>
> "I do believe that God does not exist"
> "I do not believe that God does exist"
>
> the verb "do" "does" apply to the noun "I" and "God"
I think you're blurring the respective subjects of "do" and "does." To clarify
this point, maybe we should restate the argument this way:
A. I have the belief that God is nonexistent.
B. I lack the belief that God is existent.
If you dispute the rephrasing, let me know.
Thereafter, let's remove the dependent clause from each for a moment, yielding:
A. I have the belief
B. I lack the belief
With this in mind, it should be clear that statement A is a declaration of an
existing belief (ie, the belief itself exists) while statement B is declaration
of a nonexisting belief (ie, the belief itself does not exist).
> What it is the nouns do (or do not) is where the transitional verbs come
> in--they transition from one side of the equation to the other side (like
> algebra)
>
> "Believe" is a transition from what the noun "I" does to what the noun "God"
> does"
I know all this, but you seem to be forcing "believe" to be the central and
unmodified verb in both statements, and that's not the case. In statement B,
the verb "believe" is explicitly (and necessarily) modified by "not." If you
omit that adverb, then you're changing my statement, resulting in the dreaded
"straw man."
> Taking it further, we could say that your idea of belief could be
> incorporated--To state that one doesn't believe in something is stating a belief
> in and of itself--I believe in my non-belief of the existence of God.
>
> I believe in God
> Dave! believes in his non-belief in God
>
> Either way, it's a belief.
Well, rephrase it like this:
Dave K believes in his belief in God.
Dave! believes in his lack of belief in God.
which immediately expands to
Dave K believes in his belief in his belief in God.
Dave! believes in his belief in his lack of belief in God.
which immediately expands to
Dave K believes in his belief in his belief in his belief in God.
Dave! believes in his belief in his belief in his lack of belief in God.
Clearly that would go on ad infinitum, and where does that leave us? But
anyway, you're pushing the argument into epistemology, where I don't think it
necessarily has to go.
You haven't claimed this following point, but someone might be inclined to
suggest that the positive statement "I believe X" is self-limiting, whereas the
negative statement "I not-believe X" requires the attachment of an additional "I
believe." That would amount to "special pleading," which is a fallacy.
Regardless, at what point to you accept a statement of belief, or of lack of
belief, at face value? If, for instance, your clothing is on fire and someone
asks if you need help, I doubt that you'd say "I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe I believe that I believe that I believe I believe that I believe that I
believe that I need help."
The very fact of one's statement, assuming that the statement is not false,
implies that all of this "I believe that I believe" stuff has been subsumed into
the actual statement uttered. You can unpack it, but only if you've got
eternity to spend on it, and I don't believe that I do.
> Wow, you write that word out so much it appears to lose all meaning ;)
And it starts to look like it's spelled incorrectly, no matter how many times
you check it.
Dave!
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