Subject:
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Re: La belle province
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 25 Apr 2003 01:11:23 GMT
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3112 times
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Where to begin...
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Terry Prosper writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Terry Prosper writes:
> > <snip>
> >
> > I dunno, Quebec doesn't seem all that oppressed to me, but I only have an
> > outside view.
>
> No oppressed socially, but politically. Our rights as humans are well
> respected, if that's what you mean. No problem there.
K, let's start here--Every elected PM in my lifetime (and most PM's before
that) came from *one* province--guess which one. Political oppression? Where?
>
> > Consider yourself lucky you're "stuck" with a country that would probably at
> > least let you secede without too much of a fight if you ever marshalled the
> > votes for it. Many people, oppressed far far more than you guys are, are not
> > that lucky by a long stretch. Consider the Nigerian/Biafran war, consider
> > the breakup of Yugoslavia, consider Ethiopia/Eritrea.
>
> Yep, that's 100% true. We don't consider ourselves as martyrs. We are
> pretty happy about our situation, even if we fight to improve it. That's
> probably why half the population here doesn't see the need to change.
You consider yourselves 'speaking for Quebec' and at the same time
oppressing any view that isn't your own--answer the point about Native
Americans living in Northern Quebec wanting to stay with Canada. Every time
you supposedly fight to improve your provinces situation, what happens?
Your economy suffers. And then what happens--your fellow countrymen don't
vote for you in the next election--why is that? Because you're not fighting
to improve anything except your ill-conceived ideas.
> > The general track record of nations is that they are very hostile to the
> > notion that people can decide they don't want to belong to the larger part
> > and form their own government in a smaller part. That's too bad, really. I
> > tend to support the rights of self determination and feel secession ought to
> > be allowed.
>
>
> Yes, I agree. That's why I also support Catalan and Ireland in their
> fights, although the IRA isn't helping their own cause imho.
Well at least something we can agree on.
> > But on the other hand, I'm usually not so keen to see countries fracture
> > along ethnic lines, myself as the formerly oppressed minority that is the
> > new majority in the smaller part has this nasty habit of turning on the
> > former majority.
> >
> > If Quebec got its way, what would you do to ensure the rights of the new
> > English speaking minority? From what I hear it's not very pleasant to be an
> > English speaker in Quebec (relatively speaking, mind you... I haven't heard
> > of any ethnic cleansing, thank goodness) as it is.
>
> First, let me say this: I've not read nor will I read other posts that
> follow mine. I read this one by accident and I was lucky enough not to read
> profanities in it about Quebec like some will probably do(I think, I may and
> hope to be wrong).
The reason you won't read other posts that follow is simple--you can't
continue the debate in a coherent fashion. I'm not trolling, nor am I
particuarly trying to draw you out. For me, it's just getting the truth out
over these ommissions and lies. Like alluding to the 'profanities and lies
about Quebec'. Since I'm the one who seems to be pursuing this debate with
you the most, and since you have taken issue with what I have said, then I
can only concluse that this particular allusion is directed at me. Where
have I said anything derogatory about one of my favourite provinces? Where
has anyone else? Cites please.
If I recall, a moderator had to step in here to issue a warning about
language. It wan't directed at me, Terry.
>
> The English minority in Quebec is treated just as any minorities, which is
> very good. They have access to any govt services, they have every rights as
> they should. There is no discrimination based on skin color, language or
> ethnic, cultural or religious prejudices. I'm talking on a social level
> here. Québécois are not perfect and as all people, some are racists, some
> hate Anglos, some are simply stupid :-)
I've never personally met any person from Canada who hated 'Anglos' or
'Francophones', and hopefully my luck holds out. I have, however met some
people who have stupid ideas, or do stupid things--I do not think that it's
just limited to Canadians, though ;)
> It's not about fracturing a country based on ethnic differences. It's
> simply correcting a fact. In 1867, when we were forced in the constitution,
No you weren't. Stop saying that.
> The population of Quebec (Bas-Canada) was twice as big as the Ontario
> (Haut-Canada), but we had fewer political deputees than Ontario, so every
> law that was made ever since was to help English culture take over the
> French.
No it isn't. Where? Cites please. The only law that I know that was
discrimitory where language is concerned is, again, from one province.
Something about signs containing only one language--by law.
Even France has Stop signs that say "Stop", Terry.
> Canada is said to be a bilingual country, but anywhere from Ontario
> to BC, you can't even get govt services in French (I speak by experience, I
> have visited Canada).
First, not to be a thorn in your side (but since this is a thorn in my side,
I'll say it again)--you're not 'visiting Canada' Terry--you *live* in it.
Secondly, every federal bureau, building, and document across Canada *must*
have French *and* English. But that doesn't mean that when you visit
Moosejaw that you're going to be able to parle in Francais with the local
municipality--that would be a wee bit outrageous, doncha think? To have
someone on staff in Kapuskasing's town office, *in case* one Terry Prosper
shows up and wants to chat in French? Is this your beef? K, let's hire a
whole bunch of bi-lingual people to be in every single municipal and
provincial office.
> So the French minority in the rest of Canada is not
> even treated as good as the English minority in Québec.
And yet I don't hear this supposed oppressed French minority in the ROC
complaining. I also don't think *any* French Canadian living outside Quebec
would be admonished, or even fined, if they wanted to put up a pure Francais
sign in front of their store and have all French signs inside their store.
How about an English store owner in Quebec, Terry?
> As for what you may have heard, don't forget that it's certainly not based
> on true facts. Québec is known for its peace, its quiet.
Quebec is, separatists are not
> The crime rate in
> Mtl is very low and everywhere else in Québec is the same. I'd say the
> people that get the worst treatment are not the English, as I've not heard
> of many cases of them being discriminated against, but rather Arabs, because
> Québec is closely attached to NYC, strangely enough.
>
> It's sad to see Canadians reject our peaceful movement
1970? Peaceful?
> and treat us like
> garbage.
Cites please. In my experience, and talking with folks from across this
wonderful country, even in your very own province, Terry, I have never heard
*anyone* feel that "Quebe was treated like garbage". Not once.
> The soverist movement is growing ever since the Confederation Act
> in 1867 and the political "fight" is clean and surprisingly peaceful in
> general. It's socialy accerptable in Anglo-Canada to make fun of Québécois.
> Most humor shows on CBC (the national TV channel) are specifically designed
> to humiliate us. Laughing about Anglos in such ways in Québec happens, of
> course, but in a lesser degree.
Ah, no. What CBC are you watching? If anything it's the easterners that
get the brunt of Canadian humour--of course, most comedies originate in
Halifax. Now when 'This Hour has 22 Minutes' or 'RCAF' makes fun of
political leaders--'Doris Day' ring a bell? I think the Aliance party gets
the brunt politically, but since JC is the PM, he also gets picked on--it's
not because he's French and hails from Quebec, it's because he's our leader,
Terry. I don't see Texans getting up in arms because the media has picked
on Dubya for so long, and they think that it's directed at them.
>
> What we thrive for is our own country so we can make our own laws, establish
> our own foreign relations, be part of the UN.
Dusting off my poli sci stuff from way too long ago, but 9 of 10 provinces
have one judicial system--can't even recall the name of it, and Quebec has
*always* had a separate justice system. You do make your own laws, Terry.
WHat are you going on about? As for the rest? All the power to you if you
become your own country. Ah, but there's the rub...
> Our culture is unique in N.
> America. We have our own signers, comedians, musicians, celebrities. We
> are also of different origins, we think different, we react different, we
> are way more socialist that the rest of N. America. I'm saying these facts
> to express the differences, but I'm IN NO WAY implying that they show that
> we are better or worse, just different.
And yet this is enuf to separate from Canada? In what ways is being a
province of Canada infringing on your abilities to be socialist--Canada is a
very socialist country. In what ways is being a part of Canada stopping you
from having your own singers (Celine!), comedians, musicians, celebrities?
I see no infringement. Where's this need to separate coming from? None of
these sources.
>
> For the ones who care to really understand the situation, you can contact me
> by email, I'll gladly explain thorouly the history of Québec or anything
> you'd like to know. I've studied history at Université de Montréal. I had
> all sorts of teachers, some Anglos that were profoundly federalists, others >not.
While your at it, you can give folks a thorough history of Canada, of which
Quebec is a wonderful, distinct part.
> Terry
Dave K
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: La belle province
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| (...) Ya, I was wondering about that myself. Why is it that in all the other provinces, signs are in two languages but in (at least in some parts of) Quebec, they're only in one (french). I'm not talking about shop signs and suchlike, I'm talking (...) (22 years ago, 25-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: La belle province
|
| (...) No oppressed socially, but politically. Our rights as humans are well respected, if that's what you mean. No problem there. (...) Yep, that's 100% true. We don't consider ourselves as martyrs. We are pretty happy about our situation, even if (...) (22 years ago, 24-Apr-03, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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