Subject:
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Re: For some Lego is a religous experience. (Was: Re: Quantifying and Classifying the LEGO Community)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 21 Apr 2003 04:33:34 GMT
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Viewed:
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2808 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Matt Hein writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Terry Prosper writes:
>
> > I was, in fact asking this question because I don't approve of children
> > being dragged to church by their parents. Religion (or absemce of) should
> > be a decision that we make alone, without the parental influence.
>
> Wait a moment here...with the logic you're advocating
> you claim:
>
> Parents shouldn't drag their children into situations
> they may not be competent to decide for themselves.
>
> With such logic, you can also bring this argument
> to say that kids should't be forced into school,
> community groups, social gatherings or extracuricular
> activities since they can't 'decide for themselves'.
>
> Terry, that's a load of crap.
You are entitle to your opinion, but it's not a load of carp. School
community groups, social gatherings or extracuricular activities are
necessary to the good devellopment of a child. Sports, Plaing games, having
fun, learning Life's lessons, it's all necassary too. But religion IS NOT.
Therefore, since it involved so many limitations and deep thinking about
philosophy, children should be able to choose for themselves what they want
on their lives. They cannot choose that at early ages, but when they are
older, they can.
Religion is a load of Crap. Any religion.
>
> > We all know that people believe in what their parents believe
> > 99,9% of the time. This, to me, is a bad thing.
>
> Why is it so bad, so evil, for parents to impose
> their beliefs to their children? So, you're saying
> that children should be given the choice for
> themselves to engage in whatever beliefs they
> want?
>
> Many parents have high expectations of their
> offspring, and to forgo everything in favor of
> political correctness could destroy the very
> fragment of the family structure. Would I want
> my kid to skip church while I attend, just because
> politicians claim he doesn't understand?
>
> Of course not.
It's not politics. You don't bring your child at the bar, right? Why?
Because it's not suitable for a child. I believe church is not suitable
either. Many families, godd and respectable families, live without
religion. They don't need it and neither do you. If you want it in your
life, why should your offsprings, as you call them, be forced to believe in
the same stories you do?
They shouldn't. It's not politics. It's respect for their intellectual
integrity.
> Sounds to my like a damned left wing/ atheist
> conspiracy.
Conspiracy? Hahaha! C'mon, pal, don't be stupid! I'm only saying what I
think about religion. It's not meant to start a conspiracy to transform
your children into anything more than decent human beings who are free from
the religious crap.
> > I'd wish that children couldn't go in any religious
> > building before a certain age so that they can choose fr
> > themselves when they are old enough to decide if they
> > want to be part of this or not.
>
> What?!!! You're obviously missing something up there,
> Terry...it's called prudence. Let me tell you about it.
>
> Families should hold the discretion to tell their
> children to participate in youth groups/ religious
> activities *because* such interaction with society
> (with the family as a whole) contributes to the
> family structure in its entirety. To deny the parents
> the right to choose for their children whether
> or not to bringthem to a religious service is
> completely ludicrous!
Religion doesn't contribute more to family structure more than a good
education. If you need a big book and a priest to have the respect from
your child, then it's a pity for you. Parenting with or without religion
shouldn't dependon the religion itself, but on mutual respect, which
religion, I'm sorry to say, has only in opne way... You shall respect your
parents, but where is it written in that best-seller that parents have to
respect their child?
Force religion on a child is not a right. As parent you can't decide for
your child. When you decide to have a child, you chose to create a life,
not to control it. The life you have created is free to decide what's best
for him, in respect of the family. Do you say yuou consider your child
chossing another religion or no religion as a lack of respect for you?
> Sure, at a certain age, children may be considered
> 'competent' enough to choose for themselves, their
> religious identity, but in ninety nine percent of
> cases, the parents have the best interests in mind
> for their offspring. Attending religious services
> encourages social interaction and goodwill towards
> others. Why, in gods name, is that so evil to you?
It's not Evil. It's simply improper to the good development of the child.
As I said earlier, church and religion does nothing more than a good
education for the children. The only purpose of religion is to control your
values. If you are a good parent, you don't need religion to teach your kid
what is right and what is wrong.
In fact, it's best not to teach them what the bible says! This book is
sick! I'd rather make them read books like Foundation (Isaac Asimov) or A
better World (Aldous Huxley). They are also fictionnal, like the Bible, but
at least, they have good social values, they don't propose we live in
constant remorse of the mistakes we make in our lives.
> > By trying to teach a child something, you almost
> > automatically force it to them if they are in the
> > proper environment. So you could consider my
> > question as a rethorical blame.
>
> No, you're just misguided...children aren't forced
> to believe in god, but they are *encouraged*. God
> gives children a rock to place their faith within,
> incentive to perform good deeds for society and
> their compatriots. Would the local priest at my chapel
> threaten to crucify someone if they refused to believe
> in god.
God gives a rock... what a load of crap! Hey, Newsflash: God doesn't
exist! Religion on the other hand does exist and it gives you the
impression that you belong to something greater than society. If you are
happy in that belief, then by all means, keep the faith, but don't start on
God... If he existed, don't you think he would have done something to save
those people's lives on Sept. 11? And what about the millions of children
that die of hunger all over the world?
If he does exist, then he's either incompetent or an a$$hole. In either
case, it's useless to pray him.
> > Especially using LEGO braicks, a toy that children love, to
> > illustrate your opinion, this to me is a especially sad.
>
> I cannot relate to that...
>
> > I just don't understand why religious people can't live there religion alone
> > for themselves, why they feel compell to harass others about what they feel,
> > how they see things... If I was to act like that, all my posts would end
> > with my own beliefs:
>
> Again, what are you talking about? I don't see priests
> wandering about my streets, holding banners denouncing
> atheists. If anything, the harassment is coming from
> you, since you're using political correctness to compell
> the other side to question god...that leads to youth
> rebellion, poor decisions and a generally higher crime
> rate.
The simple fact that all over this website, believers are free to say that
God this or God that, but as soon as someone says God is a hoax, you all
jump and start calling atheists conspirators, you say it's a load of crap,
etc... This is unfair to everyone. I call it harassment. I fight on
BrickLink so that religion and politics are never discussed. Here, I feel
it's different, IMHO, it can be discussed, but discussion goes both ways.
If you can say that God exists, I have as much the right to say that no god
exist, that it's all a big April fool's prank that has lasted for too long...
> Did you know that satanists usually end their lives
> in a seppaku fashion? Scary...it's because they're
> misguided. God serves as the beacon to guide
> distressed travellers to solid spiritual ground.
Many christians suicide too. Did God guided them toward suicide?
Are you calling non-christians satanists because they don't believe in your god?
Satanists are a cult. It's also something against I am. There is a way of
life without religion that leads to a fulfilling life where the successes
you have are not because God helped you and your failures are not the result
of a lack of faith. We are free and we take responsability for our acts.
Religion has a way of excusing everything. It was God's plan. That's a
great way to say : Hey, It's not my fault if you all got burned by my
incompetence, it was God's will!
> > God doesn't exist. If he did, he'd be a real ass-hole letting all those
> > people suffer.
>
> You're a world class idiot, Terry.
So this is what you tell your children whan they tell you they don't believe
in your god? That they are stupid?
> Have you ever heard the expression 'god serves those
> whom help themselves?'
> It's not like you can just sit there, magically hold
> your hands in the air when armed soldiers pass you and
> say 'god help me', then expect your enemy to drop dead.
> God can be epitomized as the driving force, the spiritual
> incentive some get to find the best in humanity and conquer
> the oppression around them. Did moses cry and ask for god
> to magically help him when the jews were under tribulation in
> egypt? Of course not, he confronted pharoh and demanded
> rights for the jews. If he would have say there, nothing
> would have happened.
Hahaha! So you believe in that story too! Nest you'll tell me God created
Adam, then Eve, then the apple, the snake, the flood and the Arch, etc?
Might as well set cookies and milk on a table on Dec. 24th...
> Action [1] begets results, not inaction. Think MLK or
> Mahatma Ghandi...or even Jesus :)
So what? Ghadi didn't even believe in the same religion you do! And do you
know that Einstein, probably the greatest mind, believed in God so much that
he intentionnally omitted a factor that proves the inexistence of God in his
Relativity theory? "God doesn't roll dices" he said. Well, guess what,
they proved he was right in the first place, "God" does roll dices. No grat
scientist believes in God. Because they are intelligent and they do not
fear life without it. They are enlightened. I am too.
> > But if I did that, expressing my opinion, then I'd be accused to provoque.
> > To me, "Jesus loves you" and all that crap is provoquing, but when I dare
> > say so, I get flamed and accused of intolerance...
>
> Of course, due to the inherent fact you are intolerant.
Oh, that was sooooo easy. Sheesh! I tolerate believers. My parents are
god-worshipers, like you and many others. By your constant remarks,
wouldn't you say you are the intolerant one? You called me idiot because i
expressed a different opinion that yours... Thumbs up for you! You are
soooo great. My hero! I love you! God loves you! You are going to heaven
and I, the Evil atheist, am going to hell. You happy?
> You think you can just blatantly let forth all
> of your 'I hate conservative/ religion rhetotoric'
> crap, but never back it up with solid evidence,
> (as with your trade odds with John Neal) and expect
> others to flock to your side in pity of you and your
> left wing nonsense.
Evidence??? EVIDENCE????? HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Show me one, only one, solid
evidence (you know what solid means, don't you?) that your god exists. Only
one! I dare you!
Hahaha! That was a great joke. I'm still LOL !
Look, pal, if you are friends with John Neal, fine, go talk about killing
Muslims with him. I prefer non-violence, like MLK, Gandhi, "or even Jesus"
:-)
Conservative? You mean anti-evolution, anti-feminism, Christians only
world? Sorry, I have too much respect for human species to be conservative
and deny my peers the rights they have to be free and to choose for
themselves, wheter they are women, jews, arabs, muslims, blacks, whites, etc.
> Pathetic. • Why Thak you very much, Mr. Tolerance!
>
> <<_Matt Hein_>>
> Fellow christian enthusiast
This post has been one long big insult to me. I would be offended if I had
any respect for you, and I probably did respect you as a Fellow LEGO
Enthusiast before, but now that I've read it, I'm not sure I can respect
you. I have responded with harsh words, but it was only to strike back at
you. I wish that Fellow whatever (LEGO, christians, etc) Enthusiats will
understand that, as I said, I don't have anything against believes, but
against religion itself, not including the followers. I'm saying this
because I know some people will not understand that they are not their
faith, that you can, and should, doubt your religion without doubting yourself.
The way I see it, believers are afraid of the consequences of living without
a greater power that rates our lives so we are punished or not afetr life.
Smart people accept that others can live without prayers, faith and all that
stuff. If you want that in your life, I repeat myself, I have no problem
with that. The problem I have is to force the religion on children and to
try to force it on others, as Matt just did with me.
Terry
Fello LEGO Atheist Enthusiast.
Peace and Love.
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