Subject:
|
Response for Dave! (about 3 years later:-)
|
Newsgroups:
|
lugnet.off-topic.debate
|
Date:
|
Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:27:22 GMT
|
Viewed:
|
257 times
|
| |
|
|
Okay, Dave! your wish, my command:
http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=18519
For some reason, I wasn't able to reply to the original post. My reply below
has been snipped from this post:
http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=3193
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> > If you note in the Gospels, Jesus forgave sins while He was still alive.
> > "Taking the sins of the world" sounds like Theology to me. Symbolism is a
> > powerful tool (ie Jesus =Lamb of God-think Passover), but I doubt such saving
> > action *required* death. Besides, don't be so temporal. We are talking
> > about a God who is out of time.
> One thing that's always bothered me about the dying-on-the-cross thing is
> the question of how could He have done otherwise? I mean, if He knew, as I
> suspect He must have known, that His death would redeem mankind, wouldn't it
> have been unspeakbably selfish not to allow it?
I don't think Jesus knew anything of the sort, and as evidence I would point to
his recorded behavior prior to his arrest. Though he sensed that his death was
close at hand during the last supper, he was extremely troubled in Gethsemene,
praying 3 times for "this cup to pass". That doesn't sound to me like he knew
exactly what was going to happen. This exemplifies the paradox of the "fully
human, fully divine" nature of Jesus. Though it may sound convenient, it is
completely inexplicable to unpack that concept!
> Additionally, His status as
> the Son of God can't excuse Him from such responsibility; on the contrary, it
> requires Him to submit to crucifixion, since He is uniquely suited to redeem
> mankind in that fashion.
Yes, but I'd argue that his true nature was a mystery, even to himself. Of
course, I am presenting the synoptic account of Jesus-- John's Jesus is pretty
self-aware and has it all together. *He* submits to stuff as if he is going
through the motions. The true nature of Jesus is about a controversial topic
as you could find among Christians-- and probably the most misunderstood.
> If I had credible reason to believe that my--and *only* my--crucifixion
> would forever end cancer, for instance, or even the common cold, what kind of
> selfish jerk would I have to be not to volunteer?
Ah, but what if you thought that your death *might* end cancer-- would you
still submit? And even if you did know, would it be any less hideous, painful,
and frightening?
> For that matter, many
> people in the Bible, and certainly many in the modern world, have died in much
> more hideous ways with no resultant redemption. Further, if "temporal"
> matters are beneath God or Christ, why should the crucifixion have any value
> at all?
In terms of mechanics, none. As I mentioned previously, Jesus forgave sins
while he was still alive. The crucifixion serves as a powerful metaphor on
many levels, the most powerful of which would probably be Jesus as the pascal
lamb, the final sacrifice for the atonement of sin.
> I'm not trying to be blasphemous here (I'll keep those opinions in off-
> topic.clone-brands),
Good one:-)
> but I've really wrestled with this dilemma for some
> time. Am I missing something obvious?
While it is confession time, I'll admit that I always was a little
uncomfortable with the symbol of a human sacrifice-- along with the most
disturbing story in the OT IMO (are you listening, Rev?) the near sacrifice of
Isaac.
-John
|
|
Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Response for Dave! (about 3 years later:-)
|
| (...) huge, and elements were easily overlooked. (...) That's an interesting explanation, but I'm kind of surprised to hear you offer it, since it's strongly reminiscent of Jesus as portrayed in The Last Temptation of Christ. That film is one of my (...) (22 years ago, 8-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
2 Messages in This Thread:
 
- Entire Thread on One Page:
- Nested:
All | Brief | Compact | Dots
Linear:
All | Brief | Compact
|
|
|
|
