Subject:
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Re: Response for Dave! (about 3 years later:-)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 8 Dec 2002 06:14:23 GMT
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Viewed:
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459 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> Okay, Dave! your wish, my command:
> http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=18519
Heh. Don't worry about missing the original post--like I said, the thread was
huge, and elements were easily overlooked.
> > One thing that's always bothered me about the dying-on-the-cross thing is
> > the question of how could He have done otherwise? I mean, if He knew, as I
> > suspect He must have known, that His death would redeem mankind, wouldn't it
> > have been unspeakbably selfish not to allow it?
>
> I don't think Jesus knew anything of the sort, and as evidence I would point to
> his recorded behavior prior to his arrest. Though he sensed that his death was
> close at hand during the last supper, he was extremely troubled in Gethsemene,
> praying 3 times for "this cup to pass". That doesn't sound to me like he knew
> exactly what was going to happen. This exemplifies the paradox of the "fully
> human, fully divine" nature of Jesus. Though it may sound convenient, it is
> completely inexplicable to unpack that concept!
That's an interesting explanation, but I'm kind of surprised to hear you
offer it, since it's strongly reminiscent of Jesus as portrayed in The Last
Temptation of Christ. That film is one of my favorites, but it was roundly
denounced as heresy when it came out; I wouldn't have expected you to concur
with its premise that Jesus was uncertain of his correct course re: the
crucifixion.
Having said that, though, I must confess that I'm not comfortable with the
paradoxical conclusion; it's a little too "have your cake and eat it, too" for
my tastes. It would be like positing, for example, that Jesus was divine at
some times and mundane at others. Raise Lazarus? Sure! Multiply loaves and
fishes? No problem. But being aware that his own immortal divinity wouldn't
be truly harmed by terrestrial crucifixion? Sorry, that's beyond his power.
I just don't get it. If he knew he was the divine son of God, and if he was
as wise as he is widely proclaimed to have been, then I can't accept that he
didn't know what would happen. Even if he couldn't predict the specific mode
of his execution (although he would certainly have known that crucifixion was a
common enough sentence for his crime of sedition), he must have been aware that
no mortal death would truly kill him.
But on the other hand... Do you suppose it would have been possible for Jesus
to refuse the crucifixion? If not, then I think we're left with another
version of the problem of free will vs. predestination. That is, if he had no
choice to make, then there's no value in the choice he made, but if he *did*
have a choice, what might have been the result had he refused?
> I'd argue that his true nature was a mystery, even to himself. Of
> course, I am presenting the synoptic account of Jesus-- John's Jesus is pretty
> self-aware and has it all together. *He* submits to stuff as if he is going
> through the motions. The true nature of Jesus is about a controversial topic
> as you could find among Christians-- and probably the most misunderstood.
Okay, you pretty much answer one of my listed concerns. But controversial
or not, if John's Gospel makes him self-aware, don't we have to accept that
Jesus was self-aware?
> > If I had credible reason to believe that my--and *only* my--crucifixion
> > would forever end cancer, for instance, or even the common cold, what kind of
> > selfish jerk would I have to be not to volunteer?
>
> Ah, but what if you thought that your death *might* end cancer-- would you
> still submit? And even if you did know, would it be any less hideous, painful,
> and frightening?
Well, it's kind of like what Brendan and I have described in terms of an
atheist's endurance of temporary hardship. If I, as a self-aware (assuming
John is correct) divine figure, know that I'll be crucified, naturally I won't
be thrilled about the certain pain in store, but I would recognize it to be
temporary. I wasn't thrilled about the impending pain of having my wisdom
teeth out, but I knew that the pain would likely be temporary, so I submitted
to the procedure[1]. I'd also suggest that your point depends on Jesus' not
knowing for certain that his crucifixion would result in redemption, but that
would again require Jesus to have incomplete knowledge and therefore would
question his divinity.
> > Further, if "temporal" matters are beneath God or Christ, why should the
> > crucifixion have any value at all?
> In terms of mechanics, none. As I mentioned previously, Jesus forgave sins
> while he was still alive. The crucifixion serves as a powerful metaphor on
> many levels, the most powerful of which would probably be Jesus as the pascal
> lamb, the final sacrifice for the atonement of sin.
Now *that's* interesting. Sort of like a sacrifice to end all sacrfices.
I see your point on this, but I can't reconcile it with what I see as
necessary demands upon Jesus' essential nature.
Thanks for the reply in any case!
Dave!
[1] Shot full of novocaine but wide awake, thankyouverymuch. Two teeth from
the top and one from the bottom. I distinctly recall the odd tugging sensation
from deep inside my skull, along with a sound not unlike what you'd hear if you
pulled a steel screw from a pine board.
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Response for Dave! (about 3 years later:-)
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| Okay, Dave! your wish, my command: (URL) some reason, I wasn't able to reply to the original post. My reply below (...) I don't think Jesus knew anything of the sort, and as evidence I would point to his recorded behavior prior to his arrest. Though (...) (22 years ago, 6-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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