Subject:
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Re: Averages and Capitalism (was Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 13 Sep 2002 16:43:18 GMT
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Viewed:
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1326 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Brown writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Richie Dulin writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > <snip>
> > > > I disagree and I see no further proof necessary other than to point out that
> > > > the closer one gets to a pure capitalist system the better off on average
> > > > everyone is, and the closer one gets to a pure socialist system the worse
> > > > off on average everyone is. That's pretty generally accepted, I think,
> > > > because we have so much empirical proof all around us.
> > >
> > > I'd generally accept that ;-).
I don't accept that as a given. Too often pure socialist countries started
off way down the ladder anyway, and are further weighted down by being
dictatorships.
> > >
> > > But in accepting that, I have to accept that, as one gets closer and closer
> > > to a pure capitalist system, there are more and more people who are worse
> > > off than average.
> >
> > That's not entirely accurate, but even if it was, it's not a good metric.
> > The average standard of living in the US is significantly higher than, say,
> > China.
> >
> > I don't tend to agree with Larry on political ideals, but as a goverment
> > moves closer to pure socialism, the potential abuse becomes greater. This
> > is not to say that socialism is more prone to abuse than capitalism, but
> > that abuse in a pure socialist system is farther reaching. It is easier to
> > become a tinpot dictator coming from a socialist gov't than a capitalist one.
I think it is easier for socialists to take over capitalist countries with
already established tinpot dictators and replace them with their own.
Socialism is merely the mobilizing force (Kings, Queens,
Presidents-for-Life, More Equal Than Others Comrade-Brothers, up against the
wall!).
> >
> > Capitalism, by acknowledging and explicitly incorporating the tendency of
> > people to put themselves first is better protected against it.
> >
> > James
Diffusing power is the better protection. Too centralized a government, too
pervading a corporation (Banana "Republics"), and you have a recipe for
dictatorial powers. Which is an argument against pure socialism, but this
was about Larry saying that socialism does not work, without qualifying the
statement in any way.
>
> And I would tend to concur. I mean, if I'm going to be fed and housed, and
> really not have to do anything to 'earn' it, why would I work? In the
> 'perfect' socialism, everybody works and then everything that they made gets
> gathered up and redistributed fairly to everybody--but when we factor in
> human nature, it is, as someone else said, counter-productive.
Personally, the bigger the scale, the more I think socialism breaks down for
just those reasons - though perhaps all it needs is better safeguards. But
on a smaller scale, where everyone knows everyone else, it has worked quite
well in any number of communities.
>
> This is where capitalism has socialism beat by a long mile--in capitalism,
> the 'harder I work' the more I can have--it all goes to me :)
The harder we work and pull together as a team, the better chance we have of
beating those guys who are merely out for themselves.
Of course, once your "team" is a bunch of faceless numbers, you lose your
motivation. :-)
>
> Which again brings up my point--until human nature changes, when we become
> selfless people instead of selfish people, neither pure capitalism nor pure
> socialism is ever going to work.
Neither takes into account human nature, so I feel both are ultimately
broken in the "pure" form. If one wants to account one of them a religion,
I think it would then be equally true of the other.
Bruce
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