Subject:
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Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:00:27 GMT
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Viewed:
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3684 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Joseph Williams writes:
>
> > I'm in full agreement with taking into consideration previous civilizations
> > as greater in influence than what is currently the USA of today.
>
> Well, let's compare apples to apples here. I said greatest *nation*-- you can
> hardly compare a nation to a civilization.
>
> Take either
> > China or Egypt,
>
> ...please. (apologizes to Henny;-)
>
> which are still very vital world communities today.
>
> That's putting it kindly. China is one of the most repressive countries on
> earth. Just wait until the 1,000,000+ Chinese young men with no chance of
> marriage start getting restless...
This is one for the first things that I actually agreed with ;)
>
> > I think your attitude would slam more doors than anything.
>
> My attitude is that we are great because we love liberty and freedom-- what is
> so wrong with that?
There is nothing with saying the USofA is great. My original issue was with
saying it is the "Greatest" nation. The US is great, for numerous reasons
which I may expound on, but it is arrogance and conceit to say it is the
Greatest nation.
>
> But for what it's
> > worth the USA flag isn't looked terribly favourably in a lot of countries.
>
> It's worth nothing. List any country, and I'll bet that we have either given
> millions of $$$ to them in aide, sent our men to die for *their* freedom, or
> assisted them in some profound fashion.
Yes the US did. The US gets actively involved in conflicts, sometimes for
the right reasons. But, and again, I'm not Mr. tabulate all data from all
time, and I do completely appreciate the ultimate sacrifice of soldiers that
fought for freedom against tyranny, here's the thing--Vietnam--two cold war
enemies battling it out--Desert Storm--oil interests, whatever--you know
your history better than mine. Churchhill practically had to beg the US to
get in the game. I heard that the president wanted to get in (and thanks
for the planes, btw--love that part), and finally the president convinced
the rest of the xenophobes of the country that what affects one of us,
affects all of us.
> > Not that any *western* country is but the US's overseas policies and refusal
> > to commit to various treaties makes it more of a target in some places.
>
> Ha, US-bashing is all the rage in European countries such as France--
> intellectually bankrupt socialists bore me.
US bashing is getting nowhere, either--just bugs people. However, a
coherent foreign policy would not be out of order. Getting news from any
non-American news organization is completely different than reading what the
one-sided American News puts out. Almost like propaganda...
>
> > The US's success is based on immigrants. It is not so much a nation as the
> > metaphor for the global village.
>
> Absolutely, undeniably, incontrovertibly NO, NO, NO! And NO! Again, I say NO!
>
> First, the immigrants wouldn't have come here if there wasn't *opportunity*.
> But even if they came anyway, if we had set up a dictatorship, we could have
> used those immigrants as slaves or something.
Yes there is opportunity. Yes people are allowed to do as they please for
freedom and justice for all. These are good things, they make the US great.
But I state again, is not making the Greatest Nation on the planet.
> We are not the first nation to be flooded with immigrants. We are the first to
> allow immigrants to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
> *freely*. *THAT* is what our success is based on.
>
>
> More enlightened citizens of your country
> > realize their stewardship role. What have you done to contribute to your
> > country's greatness besides being born in it?
>
> Me, personally? I am an honest, upstanding citizen, I work hard to make a good
> life for me and my family, I pay taxes, and I am willing and able to defend her
> if and when I'm called to do so. What *more* would you expect or want from a
> citizen?
>
> Measuring your flag pole is
> > what seperates you from the rest of the world and dosn't help anyone.
>
> My point wasn't to toot our collective horn-- is was to point out that we are
> great *because* of our Constitution.
You are great because your people make it so. The Constitution was a good
starting point, but people a)must come first and b) evolve. To be slaves to
a piece of paper will make a country stagnant and unchanging.
> The US
> > has contributed to every major disaster and 3rd world country because they
> > have inherited the responsibility of stewardship.
>
> From whom?
>
> And it's a bit of blind
> > luck that WWII went the allies way and were it not for the UK the Natzi's
> > would have put a different spin on things.
>
> What in the world are you talking about here? Luck had nothing to do with it--
> sacrifice in the name of feedom won WWII. To imply otherwise is frankly
> insulting to the thousands who died to preserve yours and my freedom.
The thousands who sacrificed before the US decided that it would be in their
best interests to join the war. I think its historically accurate to say
that most fights the US has bee in has been for internal reasons. Britain
started WWII because of what Germany did to someone else.
> I think that adds to Pedro's
> > arguement the unrelenting effort with manpower and funds that the UK
> > commited to preserving the 'american way of life' and all of democracy. If
> > America had devoted as much energy and suffered as many losses as the UK did
> > then it would be a different discussion we would be having. And like Pedro,
> > sorry for jumping in on this in the middle ;-)
>
> Did you read your history book upside-down? Europe owes a debt of gratitude to
> the US! We *liberated* France from German occupation, for crying out loud--
> and for that we get disdain in return.
And Canada liberated Holland--It was the *allies* that fought and won the
war, not the US. And I may remind you that without the Soviet Union
fighting with the allies, the US's cold war enemy, the world would be a far
different place today.
> -John
My dad equates success with financial greatness. Therefore out of all his
kids, my sister is the most successful 'cause she's almost a millionairess.
Me, on the other hand, equate success with being fincancially stable, tho
that's nto the important part of success--to live my life healthy and happy,
have loved ones around me, and to just live a comfortable and enjoyable life
being there for others. I don't want to work 18+ hours a day, (which my
sister does most days) I want to work hard enough to keep my taxes paid, to
pay off my loan, and to give me spending cash to buy LEGO's (*Not* invented
in the USofA).
So it all depends on how you define 'greatest'. THe US doesn't have the
greatest number of people in one country, so that's out. The US doesn't
have the highest literacy rate, so no winning there, the US isn't
geographically the largest country in the world, so that's a no show... not
the oldest country in existance today, what else... it doesn't matter. The
US is a great contry, so is Canada, so is Austrailia for that matter (that
one takes up an entire continent!!).
A few correlations:
THe US auto manufacturers were sitting all smug-like in their idea that they
were the best, and they started to produce crappy cars--but what did they
care? No one was there to bother them--that is until the imports from Japan
sent them a wake-up call.
The US car manufacturers were great (and are again, imho) but they had a
time when their own arrogance blinded them. They had to change in order to
keep up with the changing world.
As well, if we want to look at something smaller, look at Microsoft. It is
a company that most believe is arrogant and presumptuous--the biggest kid on
the block so it can do anything. We cheered when Linux started to get well
known for 'that'll teach those folks at MS to stop taking us for granted...'
The United States is the biggest kid on the block right now--that does not
make it the greatest. It's a great country, to be sure--I love the space
shuttle, I love the entertainment industry (tho the greatness there is
mostly due to Canadians ;) )
What's the no. 1 cause of death for black males aged between 18 and 35 in
the United States? Homicide.
Yeah, don't tell me the US is the greatest nation on the planet.
Dave
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