Subject:
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Re: One of my issues with the god of the old testament
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:34:47 GMT
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Viewed:
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993 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> > > > Sort of, but I'm not sure that I agree with it. Why should an infinite
> > > > being be constrained by our notions of impossibility, even if those notions
> > > > seem absolute to us?
> > >
> > > I dunno. What makes you so sure that he shouldn't be? Is it a logical fallacy
> > > to say that he shouldn't be? Is there a flaw with such a belief that makes it
> > > invalid?
> >
> > I'm not sure I can understand any definition of Him that allows
> > something greater to be imagined. Ignoring for a moment the question of
> > evil, it seems to me that a being that can do something is greater than a
> > being that cannot do something. I can imagine, at least conceptually, a
> > being that can accomplish the impossible, and, since I can think of it, God
> > must be greater than that (accepting the earlier assumption).
>
> Very Descartian of you :) I think the only rebuttal I can say is "Why must it
> be that way?" I guess I just don't see a problem with a God for whom certain
> things are impossible, such as the absurdity of changing 4+3=9, while leaving
> the rest of mathematics alone, and having such a change be absolute. Can I
> fathom the possibility? Sure. Is it plausible? No. Is it plausible for God?
> Doesn't have to be...
>
> > > > I would argue that [morality] describes something that can't be
> > > > as readily demonstrated to be external to man.
> > >
> > > Demonstrated, no. At least not within our abilities.
> >
> > Unfortunately, that's the god-of-the-gaps argument restated; we can't
> > posit something unverifiable and then use it as an escape clause as needed.
> > If we can't verify it, then it's not really useful in empirical thought.
>
> I don't think we were arguing it's *use* *within* empirical thought, but using
> empirical thought upon it. The problem with morality is that there does in fact
> seem to be a set of consistant morals between humans. And the thought for
> almost all humans is that "If only I could make X understand, X would know that
> action Y is moral/immoral". And, interestingly enough, morality has progressed,
> like it or not, and our understanding has changed. The most impressive part of
> that change being that it hasn't really ever backtracked...
>
> > but I don't understand how a Christian reconciles his view morality with God
> > and His goodness (the latter of which I recognize you and I aren't
> > discussing) in terms of how each applies or relates to the other.
>
> I think James' viewpoint is that humans' knowledge of morality improves over
> time, with respect to an "ultimate" morality, as we build up experience and
> knowledge. Meanwhile, God, while having greater possibility for experience and
> knowledge (and being infinite to some degree) understands this same
> "ultimate" morality perfectly. However, it seems more and more that one's moral
> standing (against the "ultimate" yardstick) isn't important to God, so much as
> other matters; one being a person's adherence to their OWN understanding of the
> "ultimate" morality. Hence, everyone is judged against their own yardstick, but
> each person's yardstick resembles to some extent, the "ultimate" yardstick. As
> to why such an ultimate yardstick even matters anymore, I dunno. Let's hope
> James responds :)
>
> DaveE
Wow. On face value I can't find any reason why I disagree with your summation
of my view. I would ammend, however, the idea that God doesn't care about our
measure against the yardstick, if we remain consistent with the level of our own
moral understanding. God is not satisfied until we are anything less than he
has created and endowed us to be. We love our children, no matter what, but are
not satisfied with a 21-year-old in diapers if he has the ability to be in
uniform. I'd say that the yardstick matters because a universe that can reach a
Best State of Affairs is an inherently better universe than one that either
cannot or has not. While the yardstick shows room for moral improvement, it
matters in so far as the potential for a BSoA has not yet been realized. If we
all, in the afterlife, indeed become perfect, then the act of using the stick to
measure will no longer be needful, although the stick shall continue to exist--
for indeed it must--because the stick is embodied in God; neither created by
Him, or created from Him, but a necessary part of his essence, and as such,
infusing all that he creates.
james
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