Subject:
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Re: One of my issues (Warning: even wordier than usual)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:06:54 GMT
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Viewed:
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1264 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, James Brown writes:
> > I can conceive of such a being in at least abstract terms, such as "that
> > being which is not bound by our definition of logical impossibility."
>
> So in other words, you're changing your definition of impossible. You are
> restricting impossible to mean "impossible within my frame of reference".
What I was attempting to do was provide a conception of a being that can
perform what throughout this debate has been considered a logical
impossibility. I don't see how offering one criterion without excluding
others is a restriction on impossibility.
> > A: "God is infinite and can do anything."
> > B: "Can he create a rock he can't lift?"
> > A: "No, but that doesn't count."
> You're giving the wrong answer from A. The correct answer is "if it can be
> done, yes. It seems paradoxical to me, but I have a finite frame of reference."
But that's an escape clause for any conceivable question to which you
don't currently have an answer, and so is the same as having no answer at all.
> > If he's simply beyond our ability to comprehend, then he's not necessarily
> > infinite, so he's hardly the absolute being.
>
> Not necessarily, but that doesn't also mean he isn't, does it? You're
> making a leap that isn't logically present. From the premise (God is beyond
> our ability to comprehend), you conclude God is limited. That's the logical
> equivalent of:
>
> I am 5 feet tall.
> You are taller than I am.
> Therefore, you are 6 feet tall.
But you're saying:
I am 5 feet tall.
God is taller than I am.
Therefore, God may be infinitely tall.
Sure he can, in that case, but if we can't extrapolate a precise answer
from an unknown, we certainly can't extrapolate infinity from that same
unknown. And "may be" isn't any more helpful, either, when we're speaking
about absolutes.
From the premise "God is beyond our ability to comprehend," I conclude
that we cannot therefore declare him to be absolute or infinite.
> I would say that the empirical one is not necessarily superior,
> but is merely more empirical. You are comparing apples and oranges, I think.
I am comparing apples that we can verify and oranges that we cannot. As a
system of understanding, explanation, and prediction, I maintain that
empirically demonstrable phenomena are greatly preferable to those that are
not empirically demonstrable.
If God could be empirically demonstrated, wouldn't that be better then the
current situation, in which he cannot? Surely more people would be "saved,"
and that would seem to me a fine means of determining superiority of method.
> I would further add that most christians (who thought about it this much)
> would ammend it to say "...but chooses to be".
Again, non-falsifiable and therefore of no predictive value and limited
descriptive value.
> > We might also invoke Hume and point out that if we can get to morality
> > without the need of a god, then it's preferable to do so, since we don't
> > therefore have to posit the existence of any other being, much less an
> > infinite being.
>
> Probably true, but I would cynically answer that I don't think humanity (as
> an aggregate, not necessarily as individuals) has pushed social evolution to
> a point where a moral code can easily be seperated from a higher authority
> conceptually.
Maybe not, but even with the supposed moral absolute of Christianity, few
people indeed lead a perfectly moral life. Pragmatically speaking, is an
unachievable but perfect morality any better than an achievable but
incomplete morality?
Dave!
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