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Subject: 
Re: Israel and Palestine
Newsgroups: 
lugnet.off-topic.debate
Date: 
Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:57:54 GMT
Viewed: 
601 times
  
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
Would it be possible for ownership to be *purchased* from legitimate
previous owners rather than having had to have been in the family all that
time?

Sure. I have no doubt that property deeds in Palestine changed hands just
the same as property in Anytown, U.S.A.  People there moved and sold their
homes and farms just like anyone else.

Or are you saying that purchasing land can't be done, only inheritance
is acceptable as a transfer mechanism?

No, I'm not saying that and neither are the Palestinians. And they wouldn't
need to say that since its plain as day that they're still around and
waiting to return to there homes. Many can walk right up, with loads of
neighbors for witnesses, and say "This is where my house/farm used to be,
overlooking the meadow, and here's the land title."

And in that case and every one like it, I fully support return, with
compensatory damages, if the claim is valid (sounds like it is.)

The Zionist European
Jews want to follow the inheritance thing but their claims are farts in the
wind.

This sentence doesn't help present your case.

This is still hypothetical... but if
the pre 1948 Jewish (and other) immigrants just came in and shoved people
off their land instead of buying their way in, that HAS to be fixed.

Zionists always dispute the fact of land theft by saying that they "fairly"
purchased the land from the British. This is a piss poor argument because
the British themselves were invaders and they eventually left.

Agreed. I had thought they bought it from the current residents but you
cannot buy land from an occupier who shoved the previous owners and expect
the title to be good. Do you have a reference to follow (it's a pretty
obscure thing to ask Google to find), perchance. No worries if not.

To say that
such transactions were legitimate is to say I can steal your car and sell it
to someone else making it legally theirs. I don't believe in that sort of BS.

Me either.

In a previous post in this thread, Dan, you say that there are Palestinians
who hold clear provable title that Israel is not recognising. If that's
true, it is totally unacceptable and needs to be fixed too.

It is true. I recall a PBS documentary many, many years ago that discussed
this matter (it may have been with Bill Moyers).

I'm not sure a PBS documentary *makes* it true, of course but as I said this
needs to be fixed.

Now that we are on the ground of property rights, Dan, you've found
something with which to garner my support, as this is close to home for me...

I support the right of people everywhere to self determination, to own
property and material goods honestly acquired and to be free from violence
and oppression, and those all are things that the Palestinians (and others
in the region) have been denied.

I just don't see the PA as a vehicle likely to get them these things.

The PA is still in fledgling form so I expect things to get worse before
they get better. However, the road is longer and harder for Palestinians
because they've been disconnected from the world for so long and any sudden
shift often creates more chaos.

Further I support the notion of trying (within limits, as Frank said) to find
and correct past injustices to the extent practical. That may well mean
unwinding a *lot* of land transactions in the US for example... I'd rather
do that and get closure, than continue to grant a blank check of guilt about
it to the chattering classes...

True. I get the feeling Frank views the Israel/Palestine situation as
parallel with our dealings with Native Americans. However, there is a big
difference here, namely that much less time has passed in the Middle East
and the Palestinians overwhelmingly outnumber the Israelis.

Well, maybe. I think you can argue which is harder all day. Both are hard.
Both need doing. Franks point is maybe if ours is easier we should start
there (because if a hypothetical Palestinian with valid title got it through
a chain that goes back 800 years to where the Sultan handed out conquered
lands isn't that the same in kind (but different in degree) as the Zionist
who bought it from the british??? You can argue that one is much more
recent, which is valid... at some point you have to say "stop, we can't go
back any further")

++Lar



Message is in Reply To:
  Re: Israel and Palestine
 
(...) Sure. I have no doubt that property deeds in Palestine changed hands just the same as property in Anytown, U.S.A. People there moved and sold their homes and farms just like anyone else. (...) No, I'm not saying that and neither are the (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)

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