Subject:
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Re: Israel and Palestine
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:57:54 GMT
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Viewed:
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498 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > Would it be possible for ownership to be *purchased* from legitimate
> > previous owners rather than having had to have been in the family all that
> > time?
>
> Sure. I have no doubt that property deeds in Palestine changed hands just
> the same as property in Anytown, U.S.A. People there moved and sold their
> homes and farms just like anyone else.
>
> > Or are you saying that purchasing land can't be done, only inheritance
> > is acceptable as a transfer mechanism?
>
> No, I'm not saying that and neither are the Palestinians. And they wouldn't
> need to say that since its plain as day that they're still around and
> waiting to return to there homes. Many can walk right up, with loads of
> neighbors for witnesses, and say "This is where my house/farm used to be,
> overlooking the meadow, and here's the land title."
And in that case and every one like it, I fully support return, with
compensatory damages, if the claim is valid (sounds like it is.)
> The Zionist European
> Jews want to follow the inheritance thing but their claims are farts in the
> wind.
This sentence doesn't help present your case.
> > This is still hypothetical... but if
> > the pre 1948 Jewish (and other) immigrants just came in and shoved people
> > off their land instead of buying their way in, that HAS to be fixed.
>
> Zionists always dispute the fact of land theft by saying that they "fairly"
> purchased the land from the British. This is a piss poor argument because
> the British themselves were invaders and they eventually left.
Agreed. I had thought they bought it from the current residents but you
cannot buy land from an occupier who shoved the previous owners and expect
the title to be good. Do you have a reference to follow (it's a pretty
obscure thing to ask Google to find), perchance. No worries if not.
> To say that
> such transactions were legitimate is to say I can steal your car and sell it
> to someone else making it legally theirs. I don't believe in that sort of BS.
Me either.
> > In a previous post in this thread, Dan, you say that there are Palestinians
> > who hold clear provable title that Israel is not recognising. If that's
> > true, it is totally unacceptable and needs to be fixed too.
>
> It is true. I recall a PBS documentary many, many years ago that discussed
> this matter (it may have been with Bill Moyers).
I'm not sure a PBS documentary *makes* it true, of course but as I said this
needs to be fixed.
> > Now that we are on the ground of property rights, Dan, you've found
> > something with which to garner my support, as this is close to home for me...
> >
> > I support the right of people everywhere to self determination, to own
> > property and material goods honestly acquired and to be free from violence
> > and oppression, and those all are things that the Palestinians (and others
> > in the region) have been denied.
> >
> > I just don't see the PA as a vehicle likely to get them these things.
>
> The PA is still in fledgling form so I expect things to get worse before
> they get better. However, the road is longer and harder for Palestinians
> because they've been disconnected from the world for so long and any sudden
> shift often creates more chaos.
>
> > Further I support the notion of trying (within limits, as Frank said) to find
> > and correct past injustices to the extent practical. That may well mean
> > unwinding a *lot* of land transactions in the US for example... I'd rather
> > do that and get closure, than continue to grant a blank check of guilt about
> > it to the chattering classes...
>
> True. I get the feeling Frank views the Israel/Palestine situation as
> parallel with our dealings with Native Americans. However, there is a big
> difference here, namely that much less time has passed in the Middle East
> and the Palestinians overwhelmingly outnumber the Israelis.
Well, maybe. I think you can argue which is harder all day. Both are hard.
Both need doing. Franks point is maybe if ours is easier we should start
there (because if a hypothetical Palestinian with valid title got it through
a chain that goes back 800 years to where the Sultan handed out conquered
lands isn't that the same in kind (but different in degree) as the Zionist
who bought it from the british??? You can argue that one is much more
recent, which is valid... at some point you have to say "stop, we can't go
back any further")
++Lar
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Israel and Palestine
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| (...) Sure. I have no doubt that property deeds in Palestine changed hands just the same as property in Anytown, U.S.A. People there moved and sold their homes and farms just like anyone else. (...) No, I'm not saying that and neither are the (...) (23 years ago, 10-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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