Subject:
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Re: Israel and Palestine
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:47:14 GMT
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Viewed:
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568 times
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> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> > 1. Do I think the current Zionist state of Israel has a right to exist? No.
> I can see your reasoning even if I don't agree... but how would the chain of
> events unfold to get from 1 to 2 below? Does the current state have to
> dissolve and reform as a new state?
Israel must renounce Zionism, which is a racist, fanatical, exclusionist and
intolerant political belief that regards the Holy Land as exclusively the
home of the Jews and Judaism, and deems that Christianity and Islam have no
place there. Israel must accept that Zionism is false and fraudulent in it's
claim to the Arabs lands; that Zionist European Jews have concealed the
facts of their true, non-Semetic heritage; and that there were already Jews,
Arab Jews of true Semetic decent, living in peace in Palestine before the
European invasion. Finally, Israel must recognize that the Palestinian
people have the right to return to their homes and live in their homeland.
If Israel abandons Zionism, Jews will dissolve back into the land as before.
The Arab Jews, Christians and Muslims managed this before and lived in
peace, so let the foreign Jews who are devoted to their spirituality, not
politics, join their Arab brothers.
> > 2. Do I think the state of Israel should exist provided there is also a state
> > of Palestine? Yes.
>
> With what borders (in both cases)? Dave Low alludes to this question and
> it's important... include in your answer what the role of the Transjordan
> part of the partition is...
I should have added "Do I think this is the best solution? No."
Obviously, two separate states may not work because it means that the
Palestinians would have to accept that portions of their land have been
stolen for good, and the Zionists would have to give up much of the land
they stole. So, the most sensible thing I hope someday will happen is that
the European Jews will abandon their colonial/imperialistic ways and let
Israel and Palestine form a single, unified republic with appropriate
representation from each ethnicity and religion. The Jews with spiritual
aspirations wishing to live in peace with the Arabs will stay and the Jews
who wanted to control the Arabs will go. Likewise, the Arabs who resented
the Jews would be forced, by Islamic laws of tolerance and charity, to reach
settlements and welcome their Jewish brothers. It wouldn't be easy but I
think it would be fair.
The Zionists just had the wrong idea to think they could insert themselves
into someone else's land, run them out and basically re-invent a nation that
died over two millenia ago. Nothing against Jewish people, but the nation of
Israel itself is a foreign object that the body naturally wants to reject,
like what happened with India or South Africa. Israel's time and place came
and went long, long ago.
> > 4. Do I think non-Semetic European Jews have a legitimate birthright claim to
> > Palestinian land? No.
>
> That's fine, I would agree. I'd go further, *no one* has a birthright claim
> to anything unless he or she inherited it from their parents who had clear
> title. So that includes the non european Jews and the Palestinians as well
> in "don't have a birthright"...
Actually, no it doesn't. The Palestinians DO have claim to the land,
hundreds of them (maybe thousands?) with deeds that go back even hundreds of
years. But Israel doesn't recognize Palestinian land deeds since Zionism
states "there is no land called Palestine." Catch 22.
> But IS it possible to get clear title to land by purchase in this region?
As I mentioned, many, many Palestinains do have clear deeds--official,
recognizable, titles to the land--but the Israeli government won't recognize
them.
> > 8. Do I agree with Palestinians killing Israeli civilians? No.
>
> Can you square this with 5??
Yes, I never said that Israeli civilians in general don't have a right to
peace but, as a nation itself, Israel creates conflict that often results in
suffering of their own citizens at the hands of vengeful, even fanatical
Palestinians. So, because of it's f***ed up government that murders
Palestinians, Israel doesn't deserve to live in peace. Agree or disagree,
makes no difference to me.
> > 9. Do I agree with Palestinians killing Israeli soldiers? Yes.
>
> Per 7 I agree. The IDF says "take the fight to the enemy's territory" so
> under that doctrine what the intifadah is doing is just the same thing
> although it seems they tend to target civilians a fair bit.
The Intifadah is basically civilian Palestinian uprising that targets
Israeli occupation forces. If you're saying the Intifadah target civilians
then I think you're mixing that up with Hamas or something else. Bottom
line, the Israeli military makes a living out of blowing Palestinian
civilians to pieces. The body count is staggering and, for what it's worth,
Palestinian attacks on Israeli civilians don't come remotely close to the
deaths of Palestinians at the hands of Israeli soldiers. And there's still
the thousands of Palestinians crippled by bullets, rockets, bombs, mines,
and even beatings by Israeli police.
To recognize Israel's right to exist, specifically to exist on Palestinian
land, is to accept Zionism. Do you accept Zionism, Larry?
Dan
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Israel and Palestine
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| (...) Thanks for the cogent restatement! (...) ... but forgive me if the answers raise more questions (...) I can see your reasoning even if I don't agree... but how would the chain of events unfold to get from 1 to 2 below? Does the current state (...) (23 years ago, 9-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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