Subject:
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Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 8 Oct 2001 11:04:57 GMT
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Viewed:
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424 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
> What if the permit is almost granted to be issued, unless one is declared
> "unfit"? (by a number of reasons, including possibly being a lunatic or a
> terrorist)
What if?
> > Absolutely. The citizens of the US do not have a right to drive. But we do
> > have a right to bear arms. All of them. Without "special permission."
>
> And then you get really shocked about stuff like Columbine, Waco, or that
> recent San Diego massacre...
No I don't. And those have to do (I believe) with children who are
institutionally abused, more than with firearms. The firearm was a only
tool...a means of expression.
> > In the US, we have the right to bear arms. And the priviledge to drive is
> > cheaper and easier than in much of Europe (as I understand it). So I would • say
> > that looking at only these two issues, we do enjoy more freedom.
>
> In Europe, we have small, human scaled cities - thus the car is less needed.
> We walk, and we don't become fat. Then we don't need plastic surgeries to
> look nice on topless beaches.
Why is it that Europeans often start in with this kind of stuff? It has
nothing to do with rights which is what we were discussing. I know you have
little cities and better mass transit, and I even wish that we would follow
your lead. I'm not one of these US bumpkins who thinks that _everything_ in
the US is better than _everywhere_ else. But so what?
> And thank god gas is expensive! I'd rather see more people using mass
> transit, so that I could breathe better, and not have these pesky asthma
> problems!...
I wish that our gas were not unfairly subsidized by our government. I would
like rail transport to get a fair chance against road transport. And I would
like our gas price to increase so that it included the costs of clean up
efforts and research for cleaner energy. But it still doesn't reflect well on
your rights as opposed to ours.
> > > So, it
> > > makes sense to limit their use to people who have shown to be worth at least
> > > some confidence in the respective area.
> >
> > Disagree. We should limit the use of goods only to those who have • demonstrated
> > that they will act criminally with them.
>
> And exactly how do you demonstrate one will comit a crime BEFORE one
> actually comits it?
You don't. Our system is (and should be more) based on trusting everyone and
only after they prove that they can't be trusted is something remediated.
Maybe under such a system (thought I'm not really willing to concede it) more
things can go wrong, but at least we treat each other like adults.
> > > Statistics prove pretty clearly that there is a fundamental right that gets
> > > violated in the US far more often than in any other western democracy: the
> > > right to live, and not be murdered.
> >
> > I didn't find homocide rates, but you are much more likely to be the victim • of
> > a violent crime if you call England your home than the US. I haven't looked • up
> > Germany or Portugal.
>
> England is funny. It is also cramped with people, and lots of rain. It is
So now you're saying that it's not actually guns that should be outlawed...it's
population density and precipitation? Come on. Either the presense of guns
causes violence or it does not. (I'll give you a hint -- it doesn't seem to in
the US.)
> > Yes. It has been clearly and convincingly demonstrated that as firearms
> > increase in commonality, violent crime decreases.
>
> See Colombia and South Africa to refute that claim.
OK, within the system of the United States, it has been clearly and
convincingly demonstrated.
> > > And isn't it true that conflicting rights must
> > > always be carefully balanced?
> >
> > I don't think there is any such thing as conflicting rights.
>
> The right to work, and the right to rest. Both are rights, and conflict.
No. As a citizen of the US, I have the ninth amendment rights to work and to
rest. I can choose whenever I want to, to work or to rest, or to do both.
Whether or not I can actually succeed at these actions is up to me. The rights
do not conflict at all. For rights to conflict, they would have to be mutually
exclusive somehow.
Chris
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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| (...) (snipped) (...) ! (...) Yeah, right... (...) That is why mankind invented LANGUAGE... to express. A tool for expression is a pencil, a guitar, a toy, the body expression... A gun is a tool to *end* the need for speech. You shoot, you win, you (...) (23 years ago, 8-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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| (...) What if the permit is almost granted to be issued, unless one is declared "unfit"? (by a number of reasons, including possibly being a lunatic or a terrorist) (...) And then you get really shocked about stuff like Columbine, Waco, or that (...) (23 years ago, 7-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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