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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> Well, I wouldn't call them great lengths...
> ...but I do still think that blame is virtually always shared by many.
> I'm not sure it's possible [to agree to disagree] unless I'm just to drop
> it. It seems like the meat of the point.
Well, my point has always been that even if no one is "free" of blame (or
fault or responsibility, to use the language of that prior debate), someone
is almost invariably demonstrably and culpably more responsible for the
event. If, unprovoked, I hit my cube-mate with a baseball bat, it's
entirely my fault, even if she could conceivably have worn a football helmet
this morning to prevent injury. In this case, the US is maintaining
sanctions, but they are manifestly being maintained because Hussein
continues to defy the (readily met) conditions that would end them.
> But your implication, I thought, was that Hussein somehow bore culpability for
> the Iraqi impoverished because he spent conspicuously.
I see how I came off that way, but that's not what I meant.
> Actually I kind of think national sovereignty is a scam to cover some kind of
> individual sovereignty which is what we ought to be experiencing.
Interesting--do you mean this in general or specifically in regard to the
US/Iraq situation? If you mean it in general, then I concur that it would
indeed be the ideal, but I don't know how feasible it is within the real world.
> > Since the second question is predicated on the first, then the primary and
> > overwhelming blame remains with Hussein.
>
> Primary, I'd agree to. If nothing else his action did spawn our reaction. And
> he "had the last move" so the recent cause-effect was up to him. But I'm not
> sure on overwhelming. How do you measure it?
>
> > (and the rain in Spain stays mainly on the plane).
>
> If you think I'm just the annoying village idiot, why respond?
Eep! Not my intent at all! I was making fun of myself and the phonetic
repetition I'd used: blame remains with Hussein (the rain in Spain...) Not
meant in any way as an insult to you. Sorry if it came across that way.
> > Further, and in all seriousness, do we have any reason to believe that the
> > lifting of those sanctions would improve conditions for those children?
>
> Actually, maybe that's the real test rather than the way I wrote it above.
> And I don't know the answer to it. But it still leaves many parties at fault.
>
> If we lift the sanctions would they stop dying?
> If we had never imposed sanctions would they have started dying?
> If Hussein had never invaded Kuwait would they have started dying?
Aye, there's the rub. Dan has cited some horrific statistics, and they
underscore the actual problem. Accepting that conditions are terrible in
Iraq, what is the best way to handle them? Hussein flatly cannot be trusted
not to plan military strikes against his international enemies, nor can he
be trusted not to attempt extermination of Iraqis he doesn't care for,
either. With all this in mind, it's difficult to imagine (now *there's* a
profound understatement) what the solution might be, especially given the
longterm problems resulting directly and indirectly from Hussein's actions
so far.
> > So the answer is to force American Capitalism down the throat of a nation
> > that might not want it?
>
> Once we have beaten our foe, I thought it was commonly understood that we had
> some right to see to it that their kind of crimes were not likely to just
> recurr. I'd rather think of it as exposing them to it...not forcing it down
> their throat.
Admittedly, my language was inflammatory. But what if we present our way
of life to them and they reject it?
> There are some pretty 'western' places in the middle east. They can't be
> _that_ alien for places like the UAE to thrive.
Agreed, but apparently part of the current resentment by certain ME groups
is based on the encroachment of Western culture into their society. A few
do not speak for all, of course, but I wonder how widespread that sentiment
might be. I do grant you, however, that it seems likely that women, at
least, would identify the benefit in being allowed such "luxuries" as
education and employment and the measure of personal freedom afforded by
them. It would indeed be interesting to see.
> > So what is your suggestion, exactly?
>
> Uh oh. Um...I don't really have one.
Fair enough.
Dave!
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: War
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| For sake of clarity in this discussion, I think that Saddam Hussein is a sick and twisted individual who has perpetrated much evil in this world and I would walk with a lighter step if I found out that he were killed. That said, I can go on and say (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: War
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| (...) Well, I wouldn't call them great lengths... (...) ...but I do still think that blame is virtually always shared by manny. (...) I'm not sure it's possible unless I'm just to drop it. It seems like the meat of the point. (...) But your (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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