| |
For sake of clarity in this discussion, I think that Saddam Hussein is a sick
and twisted individual who has perpetrated much evil in this world and I would
walk with a lighter step if I found out that he were killed. That said, I can
go on and say things that might sound like I'm defending him.
In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> Well, my point has always been that even if no one is "free" of blame (or
> fault or responsibility, to use the language of that prior debate), someone
> is almost invariably demonstrably and culpably more responsible for the
> event.
How are we disagreeing then? I agree with that. But "more responsible" is
different than "primary and overwhelming blame" and has a substantially
different implied quantification. I'd say one suggests 60-85% guilt and the
other more like 99.9%. And I don't think that in the case of our role in Iraqi
suffering, it is as low as one tenth of one percent. Of course assigning a
number would be impossible, but I think it's higher than that.
> If, unprovoked, I hit my cube-mate with a baseball bat, it's
> entirely my fault, even if she could conceivably have worn a football helmet
> this morning to prevent injury.
Don't forget the bat manufacturer. ;-)
> In this case, the US is maintaining
> sanctions, but they are manifestly being maintained because Hussein
> continues to defy the (readily met) conditions that would end them.
Just like I could (but would never) cut your phone lines, and keep your home
surrounded with armed henchmen, and your family as prisoners/hostages, until
you gave your kids the freedom that I think you should? So it would be your
fault that I your kids couldn't go to school?
> > Actually I kind of think national sovereignty is a scam to cover some kind of
> > individual sovereignty which is what we ought to be experiencing.
>
> Interesting--do you mean this in general or specifically in regard to the
> US/Iraq situation? If you mean it in general, then I concur that it would
> indeed be the ideal, but I don't know how feasible it is within the real
world.
In general. It certainly hasn't been done yet. I hope that we are moving that
way. Why is it that we allow nations to figure out how to get along without
over-governing boards, but we assume that we couldn't do it?
> > > (and the rain in Spain stays mainly on the plane).
> >
> > If you think I'm just the annoying village idiot, why respond?
>
> Eep! Not my intent at all! I was making fun of myself and the phonetic
> repetition I'd used: blame remains with Hussein (the rain in Spain...) Not
> meant in any way as an insult to you. Sorry if it came across that way.
Oops. Now I look like I'm being oversensitive. Oh well. My fault and no
biggie. It's obvious that's what you meant, now that I'm not being
oversensitive. :-)
> > > Further, and in all seriousness, do we have any reason to believe that the
> > > lifting of those sanctions would improve conditions for those children?
> >
> > Actually, maybe that's the real test rather than the way I wrote it above.
> > And I don't know the answer to it. But it still leaves many parties at • fault.
> >
> > If we lift the sanctions would they stop dying?
> > If we had never imposed sanctions would they have started dying?
> > If Hussein had never invaded Kuwait would they have started dying?
>
> Aye, there's the rub. Dan has cited some horrific statistics, and they
> underscore the actual problem. Accepting that conditions are terrible in
> Iraq, what is the best way to handle them? Hussein flatly cannot be trusted
> not to plan military strikes against his international enemies, nor can he
> be trusted not to attempt extermination of Iraqis he doesn't care for,
> either. With all this in mind, it's difficult to imagine (now *there's* a
> profound understatement) what the solution might be, especially given the
> longterm problems resulting directly and indirectly from Hussein's actions
> so far.
It has been portrayed in our media that Hussein is kind of a single bad guy
with a smallish loyal crew. If that is the reality, then we (the world
united?) should at least sweep them out of the way so that peace can be known
in Iraq. How long has it been since they had a good peace?
> > > So the answer is to force American Capitalism down the throat of a nation
> > > that might not want it?
> >
> > Once we have beaten our foe, I thought it was commonly understood that we had
> > some right to see to it that their kind of crimes were not likely to just
> > recurr. I'd rather think of it as exposing them to it...not forcing it down
> > their throat.
>
> Admittedly, my language was inflammatory. But what if we present our way
> of life to them and they reject it?
Well, if they reject capitalism, that's fine. If they reject peace and
continue to attack us and our allies, then I suppose we have to exterminate
them live a nest of ants. If they just refuse to get along, what else could we
do? But I don't think that would happen. People don't naturally like war and
death.
> > There are some pretty 'western' places in the middle east. They can't be
> > _that_ alien for places like the UAE to thrive.
>
> Agreed, but apparently part of the current resentment by certain ME groups
> is based on the encroachment of Western culture into their society. A few
> do not speak for all, of course, but I wonder how widespread that sentiment
> might be. I do grant you, however, that it seems likely that women, at
> least, would identify the benefit in being allowed such "luxuries" as
> education and employment and the measure of personal freedom afforded by
> them. It would indeed be interesting to see.
We might shortly.
Chris
|
|
Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: War
|
| (...) Well, my point has always been that even if no one is "free" of blame (or fault or responsibility, to use the language of that prior debate), someone is almost invariably demonstrably and culpably more responsible for the event. If, (...) (23 years ago, 2-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
|
177 Messages in This Thread:
(Inline display suppressed due to large size. Click Dots below to view.)
- Entire Thread on One Page:
- Nested:
All | Brief | Compact | Dots
Linear:
All | Brief | Compact
|
|
|
|
