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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Arnon writes:
> <snipped>
>
> It would take too long to respond to every item in your post so let me just
> say that we agree killing innocent people is wrong. Also, we can agree that
> demonizing and making generic assumptions about another culture is wrong.
Agreed.
However, when at war you can not check the beliefs and thoughts of every
soldier you bomb. The same is true for the citizens of the enemy country that
can be harmed by your actions.
There are times in which killing a few innocent people is the lesser evil.
Would you say the passengers aboard the plane in Pennsylvania that
resisted and as a consequence finally crashed the plain were wrong? All
evidence show that they probably saved hundreds if not thousands of lives.
> However, there is no way you can convince me that Israel wants, or has ever
> wanted, peace and justice.
That's a pity. Oh well, I guess I can carry on the debate in case someone else
is reading (which is unlikely after my last very long post...)
> It has always seemed to me that Israel wants
> peace for itself without embracing justice for all. Symbolically, Justice
> offers us a scale to weigh each side. Israel tips the scale in it's favor
> and then expects the Arab's to accept scraps from the what Israel stole from
> them.
Well, obviously I have a different view of the scale.
If by "scraps from the what Israel stole" you mean parts of the land of Israel
then I have to agree. Many Arabs feel that Israel has stolen the land of
Israel from the Palestinians. I don't agree with that but I do agree that
indeed, We have absolutely no intention of giving the Palestinians the whole
land and going somewhere else (to the sea, I guess).
In fact we will fight until our death before we'll do that. That's not because
we're fanatics, it's just because we have no other choice.
As I wrote in my previous letter, I do understand the Palestinian point of
view.
Can you say the same? (i.e. Do you understand why we are here and why we feel
we have no other choice?)
> The bulldozing continues, the occupation continues, thus the
> resistance of the Arabs will continue. Americans would offer the same
> resistance if some foreign entity came en mass to America's shores and
> started acting like they own the place. Why think the Arabs shouldn't?
>
> It's no secret that Israel is a Zionist state and that Zionism rests on the
> notion that Jews are God's true people and that the Holy Land is exclusively
> theirs, a thought that would sicken great Moses himself. If that's not
> religious fanaticism...
Actually, I think Moses was quite a fanatic at his time [1] and would have no
problem with that thought, but that's not your worst mistake.
Zionism rests on the notion that Jews should have their own state and that
this state should be in the land of Israel. That's it. No mention of any
superiority over other people and no problem with other minorities in this
state. In fact, there are about a million Arab Israeli citizens and other
minorities in Israel.
Zionism did not start because of anything written in the bible. It started
because life in Europe became impossible for jews, and got it's major boost
after the Holocaust that proved beyond any doubt that the hatred against jews
is so great that they really must defend themselves if they want to avoid
annihilation.
> There once was a brotherhood between Jew and Moslem
> but the Zionists ruined it.
I'm not saying that the jews were always perfect and only the Moslems are to
blame, but I do believe that the Moslems are the (much) bigger aggressor in
this case.
> We cannot paint the picture that Israel had no choice, is not the aggressor
> and occupier, nor can we vilify only the Arabs for resisting. We should
> condemn all horrid acts of violence and seek to understand. You talked about
> war and the inevitability of civilians being killed. We can agree that in
> war, the rules of engagement dictate that combat be restricted to soldier
> against soldier. However, if soldier attacks civilian, should we not expect
> the other side to do the same? In the end, we are left with only more
> spilled blood so I'd rather there be no war and no killing and no more
> indifference.
You seem to have a double standard here. A Palestinian reacting to the death
of a civilian is "resisting" and could be expected to do nothing else. But the
US reacting to the senseless death of thousands of people is jumping "the war
bandwagon" and doing a terrible mistake.
When Israel goes after the people who plan the bombing of Israeli civilians it
is a brutal aggressor, while when Arab terrorists kill thousands of people in
the US the "blame is two-fold and things don't just happen out of the blue".
I also rather there would "be no war and no killing and no more
indifference".
It's easier said then done. Especially when you are dealing with religious
fanatics.
Time after time we were proven that in the middle east the reaction to
understanding and avoiding a violent response to violence is just more
violence (see what happened when Israel drew out of Lebanon or when Ehud Barak
went to unbelievable lengths towards the Palestinians in Camp David a year
ago).
> With respect,
>
> Dan
I hope you can see that while we disagree on many points, I respect you very
much. I truly believe that if all the Palestinians [2] shared your values this
conflict would have ended years ago.
- David
[1] The Golden Calf, the Ten Plagues of Egypt, the war against Amalek, the
spies to Isreael etc.
[2] Only to be fair I should add here: and all Israelis.
I do however believe that the great majority of Israelis do share those
values.
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: War
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| (...) One innocent Palestinian killed + their enraged family and friends + decades of occupation = indefinite hatred and revenge. The same equation may apply for any victim in an unjust situation. The keyword is innocent. (...) See equation above. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: War
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| (...) <snipped> It would take too long to respond to every item in your post so let me just say that we agree killing innocent people is wrong. Also, we can agree that demonizing and making generic assumptions about another culture is wrong. (...) (23 years ago, 14-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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