Subject:
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Re: What is spam? (was Re: Scary Survey results about the US First Amendment
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 18 Jul 2001 08:07:26 GMT
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Viewed:
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896 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Selçuk Göre writes:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1402000/1402880.stm
> > > > >
> > > > > Wow!.. Is this really a big news story? I didn't expected that.
> > > >
> > > > I'd characterise it as significant! It's bad news for democracy to ban
> > > > political parties (or make the playing field uneven, as it is in the US),
> > > > even ones that are advocating non democratic courses. (that is why banning
> > > > the Communist party was wrong back when the US did it)
> > >
> > > I really don't agree. In a country like mine, you can't go fully democratic
> > > since there is no common sense majority that prevent the population from • total
> > > collapse into some stupid "islamic republic" thing, just like in Iran. In a
> > > country like mine, where the education level of people quite low and • distorted,
> > > where we still talking about litracy rates (still less than 90% by the way) • you
> > > cannot allow a bunch of people playing with very sensitive issues like
> > > religion, by which gathering quite big mass of fans is very easy.
> > >
> > > > Was it something you were aware of already, Selçuk? That is, did it make the
> > > > Turkish press? And how does the Turkish press reporting contrast with the
> > > > BBCs? My view of the Turkish press (based on nothing at all other than gut
> > > > feeling and some superficial reading) is that it's not particularly free.
> > > > (tieing back to the First Amendment and freedom of press)
> > >
> > > Larry, don't do that to me..:-) Yes, Turkey is a 3rd world country, still
> > > trying to immitate playing in the first league, but we are certainly not
> > > "patagonia" from a B-movie spy story.
> > >
> > > Of course I'm aware of that, and of course it was first news during the whole
> > > final stage of the judgement. There are more than 20 leading national
> > > newspapers (none state owned), more than 20 national TV channels (only 1 • state
> > > owned) and countless local ones of each. And of course all of them given the
> > > news of it from their point of view. Religious ones protested, common popular
> > > media didn't make comments, and social democrat ones approved. None of which
> > > closed or something.
> > >
> > > Our mother law does not allow foundation of political parties of that kind
> > > (advocating of a certain part of people over the others, related to race,
> > > religion, class, etc.), and one of the first articles of the same law clearly
> > > indicates that Turkish Republic is laicist. It must be closed under the • current
> > > law, and it is closed, that's all. So I still can't understand why this • stupid
> > > issue makes an entry in Scott's top 4 list.
> >
> > I still can (although it is not a "top 4 list"). The fact is that Turkey is
> > an oppressive country which is, as you say, "trying to imitate playing in
> > the first league". I think it is important that everyone knows what sort of
> > place Turkey is (A point I think you agree with by inviting LP there). I
> > note, with some interest, that the UK may not back the Ilusu dam:
> > http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4213887,00.html
> >
> > And if Larry does venture to Turkey, do you recommend that he does not
> > express any views which may lead the security forces feeling that he
> > supports "some stupid" Turkish Islamic Republic? If he does, will they take
> > him away during the night?
> >
> > Scott A
>
> Are you cluless or what? Yeah I'm really meaning it. I know what sort of place
> Turkey is, but do you really?
>
> For your information, political islam is very strong here in Turkey, and they
> have all the support from all levels of government and breukracy. The party is
> closed because they push the limits way tooooooo much, in an extent which
> cannot be covered by their protective sheets. You can do almost anything
> supporting the islam or almost anything by saying "because of islam" and you
> will be most probably applauded, not taken over during night.
>
> By the way, read someother things about us, not your biased media 8or ours, or
> theirs) and try to meet someone who lived in Turkey at least for a while, if
> this issue is very important to you as you mentioned above.
Unlike the media in many other countries, some of the media in the UK really
is independant. Independent even of corporate advertising. Before I posted
the message I had replied to, I read this article about how visitors to
Turkey had been treated by your police. Perhaps they were "clueless" to:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/from_our_own_correspondent/newsid_862000/862056.stm
> I'm not agains't
> your effort of trying the show others "what sort of place Turkey is", but
> please do it correctly. There are so many issues about the things going wrong
> in Turkey, so pressing the stupid points would not help nothing but clulessness
> of you.
>
> By the way please do not continue giving stupid biased site addresses here. If
> you check out our previous fight, I already made my statement about this "ilisu
> dam" thing before. Go read it.
>
> http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=10056
I have not seen any independent report which backs the dam project. Perhaps
you need to read independent reports on it? A quick search for "ilisu dam"
produces these "clueless" sites - some of which are independent:
http://www.ilisu.org.uk/
http://www.rivernet.org/tmpilisu.htm
http://www.sarahludfordmep.org.uk/
http://www.wac.uct.ac.za/whd/ilisu_lett.htm
http://www.foe.co.uk/pubsinfo/infoteam/pressrel/2001/20010703172558.html
http://www.eca-watch.org/artwestminister.html
http://www.heureka.clara.net/sunrise/ilisu.htm
http://www.khrp.org/publish/p1999/ilisu%20report.htm
http://www.peopleandplanet.org/ilisu/
http://www.irn.org/wcd/ilisu.shtml
http://www.labournet.net/ukunion/0101/balfour1.html
Scott A
>
>
> Selçuk
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