Subject:
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Re: Did animals have rights before we invented rights?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 5 Jul 2001 09:49:54 GMT
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Viewed:
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3425 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Duane Hess writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Duane Hess writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> > > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > > > > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> > > > > > > Chris:
> > > > > > > > > Neither the lion nor the wildebeest is concerned with
> > > > > > > > > morality. It is an action completely without moral regard. It is
> > > > > > > > > therefore amoral. But not immoral.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Scott:
> > > > > > > > I agree.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My position is that we should not infer human characteristics on animals. We
> > > > > > should judge them by their standards - not ours.
> > > > >
> > > > > No no, your position on whether animals are moral/immoral OR amoral. Do you
> > > > > think they are moral/immoral or amoral?
> > > >
> > > > None. Calling an animal moral/immoral/amoral is anthropomorphic - that
> > > > belongs in childrens books.
> > >
> > > First, you still haven't clarified what you were agreeing to above.
> >
> > Really? Do you understand what "none" means?
>
> Yes, I do. However, I do not understand how that answered the question. Were
> you saying "None of the above"? What were you saying? Should I just infer
> what you were talking about? I asked for clarification.
You need to be clearer then.
>
> >
> > > Second, by saying that animals ar not moral, immoral or amoral you do not
> > > add to the discussion by not stating what you beleive. I interpret your
> > > stance as either 1)animals have morals which are nothing like human morals,
> > > or 2)animals have not morals what-so-ever. Do either of those come close to
> > > the mark? Please clarify.
> >
> > Duane, read what I wrote again:
> >
> > "Calling an animal moral/immoral/amoral is anthropomorphic - that belongs in
> > childrens books."
>
> That is a re-quote, not clarification. What part of my post didn't you
> understand? You obviously have some sort of notion as to whether or not
> animals have morals, I'm just trying to find out what that notion is.
I have answered this already.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If your position is in fact the one above then you wouldn't be allowing
> > > > > yourself to even HAVE an opinion on the issue, and yet above you attribute
> > > > > amorality to the wildebeest's action, and at the same time disagree with
> > > > > Larry, which means you hold that animals MAY be moral, allowing for
> > > > > attribution of moral consideration.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can perhaps save yourself by saying that you meant that the ACTION, but
> > > > > not the ANIMAL is amoral, but then you still run into the issue above.
> > > >
> > > > I can't find the post you refer to.
> > >
> > > I think it stemmed from this post, or one of the follow-ups.
> > > http://news.lugnet.com/off-topic/debate/?n=11297
> >
> > I did not find it as Dave talked about the "wildebeest's action" - it was in
> > fact the lion's.
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > Don't all morally conscious
> > > > > > > creatures pass moral judgement?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > By doing so we infer our morals on them - rather conceited I think.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah, so all morality is conceited? If not, please clarify.
> > > >
> > > > No, inferring ones own morals on others is. If an individual makes a
> > > > donation to a charity they deem worthy - good for them. But it is wrong of
> > > > them to pass judgement on me for not doing the same.
> > >
> > > How about your judgement of them? You've already stated that it's "good for
> > > them" to donate to their charity. That in itself is a judgement.
> >
> > Irony.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > If not, then what's the point (read use) of
> > > > > > > having a moral judgement? If so, then what standard can we judge against
> > > > > > > except our own?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The morals of the societies we live in - not our individual morals.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ah. So judging by the moral standards of society, we arrive at a morality
> > > > > which is not conceited?
> > > >
> > > > No, we arrive at a set of moral which has been reached, one would hope,
> > > > after some sort of informed debate - not a gut reaction.
> > > >
> > > > > In order to avoid conceit we must judge according to
> > > > > that which others believe, and not ourselves, at least not solely?
> > > >
> > > > To avoid conceit, one only has to be modest.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > To what
> > > > > extent are we a member of that society?
> > > >
> > > > I vote. I pay tax. I work for the good of my society. I rely on it. It
> > > > relies on me. I am a member.
> > > >
> > > > > To what extent are certain others?
> > > >
> > > > What others? Selfish people?
> > > >
> > > > > Can we pass judgement on society?
> > > >
> > > > Why not? Some societies are clearly questionable.
> > >
> > > Why are some societies questionable? Is it the societies moral standards? I
> > > find the morals of my own society to be in question as they do not
> > > necessarily reflect my one standards. Are you judging another society based
> > > upon the society that you belong to, or based upon your own standards?
> >
> > I can not comapre my personal values with that of a society on a large scale
> > - you may if you wish.
>
>
> If you feel other societies are "clearly questionable" then you have already
> made a comparison - it's only natural. When looking at something new,
> regardless of what it is, you (generic "you") compare it to what you know.
> That is how you form a like/dislike for something.
You are missing the point.
Scott A
>
> > Scott A
>
> -Duane
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