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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
>
> > > Well, the more they can do with it, the worse that will be done. But I'm
> > > opposed to any required identification including our Social Security Number.
> >
> > That is something beyond my will to fight against.
>
> Actually, me too. It is possible in the US to divorce oneself from their SSN,
> and I have not done that. They make sure it's a gigantic hassle.
>
> > Why wouldn't I want him to see who my parents are, or if I'm single or
> > married? That is supposed to be of public knowledge - that is why people
> > wear those gold rings, and have last names... :-P
>
> I could come up with a number of reasons that a person might not want their
> parentage or maritl status broadcast. And you might just say those reasons
> don't apply to you. But what about others? I don't think this is just about
> you. I don't care if anyone knows who my parents are either...at least not off
> hand. But some people might and I don't see it as my right to prevent their
> privacy.
Ok, please point some reasons to me. I may even write a memo to the ID
bureau here (no kidding!) if they are irrefutable.
> > > Having the ability to gain such a tool to use as a defense isn't problematic
> > > unless it is the only way to prove your identity, because then it is
> > > essentially required.
> >
> > What other ways do you have to prove your identity AND that all citizens
> > *must* have?
>
> None. Must is bad. I can demonstrate my ID through people that know me,
> dental records, mail, etc. depending on the situation.
a) I can demonstrate my identity through a couple of friends WITH ID if I
don't have mine.
b) You keep *dental records*?! How practical is that on the street? :-P
c) How do you use *mail* to demonstrate identity?
> > I remembered a funny use for it: when I rent skis it is required to leave
> > the ID as a deposit. this way they can prosecute me if I steal the skis.
> > Again, reasonable: if I don't behave, they can bill me. Fair enough.
>
> I leave my debit card number with them.
And what they can do with that!... :-(
> > > > You fear the government will track your habits...
> > > > so maybe the response is a less advanced ID card, or the law saying only an
> > > > officer can ask you to display the card.
> > >
> > > Or maybe not having the infernal card at all? And why would I honor an
> > > officer's request? What right does he have to know who I am?
> >
> > For instance, it is practical to find criminals on the run AND you can prove
> > you are not one, by simply showing the card if you are confused by a less
> > clever officer.
>
> I might choose to do that. But I can just do that with my drivers license.
What about those who DON'T drive??
> > And why would you honor an officer's request??? Why grant him authority in
> > the first place? Better still, why have Police? Why not return to the good
> > old days of the Far West? Or the law of the jungle?
>
> Maybe the police in Portugal are all nice guys.
No, but they aren't too bad either... :-)
> Here in the US that is not the
> case. It seems to me, that those who are required to interact with them on a
> regular basis
Who? And why?
> are more likely than the rest of us to be living under the "law
> of the jungle." For my money, the concentration of law enforcement officers is
> inversely proportional to the justice that takes place.
I agree, there should be a small precinct in every block (a couple of cops)
rather than a cople of large precincts (with every cop). Dispersion is a
good policy.
> Which is not to say that they have no purpose or reason. I have been assisted
> by police and I have been needlessly hassled by police. I have seen people
> brutalized by police for "talking back." I have little respect for the
> profession.
I have only experienced the part of being assisted. And searched on the
entrance of a College festival, but that is something required by law - so
it is not a "hassle". You can talk back to officers here, as long as you
don't play violent - THAT would be very, very bad.
> > If there is a Police force, legitimated by the society, it is VERY
> > reasonable they can ask for proof of identity!
>
> If they have probable cause to suspect me of commission of a crime, then I
> agree.
What about confusion? It may be of interest to make light over
misunderstandings. There are lots of guys looking like me that can not
behave so neatly, and I sure won't like to be taken for one of them.
> > Or would you issue
> > competences and not grant the means to exercise them?
> > It is not as if the copper would be asking you to strip your clothes off...
> > THAT would be unreasonable search! :-P
>
> It has been known to happen.
!
> But I would say that under some circumstances,
> and maybe just in general, the two powers (access to identification and access
> to strip search) are only different marks on a spectrum. What is unreasonable
> about the strip search?
What would they be looking for in a strip search if you had already
established you are not the person they were looking for?
Of course, I do agree with that procedure if it was established the person
in question IS the one that was being looked for, but only if we are talking
about violent crimes, or entrance in prison. Again, this seems reasonable here.
It is a question of degree, kind of a ladder.
Pedro
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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| (...) off (...) You might not want your parentage known under any circumstance where parentage matters. If you are a mix of ethnicities, one or more of which are discriminated against, you might not want it obvious. If your parent is (in)famous, you (...) (23 years ago, 6-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.loc.pt)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Gotta love Oracle...
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| (...) Actually, me too. It is possible in the US to divorce oneself from their SSN, and I have not done that. They make sure it's a gigantic hassle. (...) I could come up with a number of reasons that a person might not want their parentage or (...) (23 years ago, 6-Oct-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, lugnet.loc.pt)
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