Subject:
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Re: Behind the curtains - LEGO Factory AFOL Project Team
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.lego
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Date:
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Wed, 17 Nov 2004 23:35:43 GMT
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Viewed:
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6740 times
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote:
> In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote:
>
> > I thought long before posting about this. Mainly because I don't think I
> > have anything positive to add and it may seem negative at first glance, but
> > what I am hoping is for an explanation so I can understand.
>
> Like you, I debated for a while on whether to respond. Text is such a bad
> medium for communication, especially if you have a dry sense of humor like I
> do. Please read the message is the most positive way you can, as I'm not at
> all upset as I type.
Hello Jake
For once, we're on the same page :-) Text IS a bad media to express our
emotions and feelings. As I was reading your answer to my post I had to keep in
mind your warning about you not being upset at all, as some answer or comments
did seem to point out you could be. But then again, I sounded harsh in the
forst place and it wasn't my intention. As it won't be this time also, so
please understand that i'm inthe same mood as you, positive.
>
> > See, I read your first post a few days ago about this factory website. You
> > sounded all excited and I thought : Nice, something positive from TLG for a
> > change! But then, I visited the website and it didn't make me happy about
> > anything. Sure, it's a nice website and all, but it doesn't do much for me,
> > the average AFOL. I mean, I'm not a micro-scale town addict, although I
> > enjoy the great projects other show on various websites.
>
> With all due respect, I don't think you're seeing the bigger picture here. I
> know you might not be into micro building personally. But there's so so so
> much more to this project than that.
You are right. I've never shyed away from admitting I'm wrong. I do miss the
big picture. I didn't see the potential. But again, and this will probably be
true in the following parts of this post, I do not feel all happy because
potential is only potential as long as it's not something that happens, so I
don't see the reason to get excited yet. Not so soon.
> We are, for the first time ever, allowing ALL consumers to participate in
> designing and producing new products. Sure, it's not a product that you,
> personally, are into, but that's not the bigger picture. I assume that you
> like the concept of the MOC sets, right? Do you have to be into trains or
> castle in order to appreciate the coolness of that concept?
I didn't understand there was a possibility, a real one mind you, of creating
our own sets. But as I red this the first time, I didn't believe it, so the
fact that you repeat it makes me think it's possible, not just a fantasy that
has zero chance of happenning. Of course this would be aewsome. It would be a
great improvement for the way angered AFOLs feel.
> > So what is The LEGO
> > Factory good for if I'm not into that kind of building? Will it expand to
> > something else than town? Have I missed something?
>
> Who knows what will happen! That's the point, and that's the bigger picture.
> If you set aside even a couple minutes to imagine how this thing *might*
> extend out over time, you can imagine many many great ideas. We certainly
> have.
Indeed, I did miss that point also. I am a bit narrow-minded towards you and
TLG since the color-change issue. I'll take the blame.
> > Maybe, I'll admit I
> > abandonned my research quite hastily when I found out it didn't appeal to
> > me.
>
> Again, all due respect, but you hate something you didn't fully research?
> It's hard for us to have a discussion about something you admit you didn't
> fully understand.
There's a wide array of feelings between hate and "not appeal to me". Did I say
I hate it? I don't hate it, I simply didn't think it was good for me.
> > Then, you post this. Great, TLG has included 10 AFOLs in the project, in
> > secrety. It's nice for them, it's nice for the community to see that TLG
> > has accepted us as a part of their universe, but at the risk of sounding
> > grim, I like many others have not yet swallowed the color-change pill. I
> > mean, TLG can make cool websites with 10 AFOLs all they want, it won't make
> > the bricks any better for us average AFOLs not included in these projects.
>
> Several points here I want to touch on:
>
> In business, sometimes projects require NDAs, contracts, and secrecy.
> Competitors are always keeping an eye on you, and to openly share your plans
> is often an invitation for disaster.
>
> It would be great to include the entire AFOL community in every project that
> takes place, but that's just not realistic. 10 AFOLs were chosen in order to
> form a fast, effective, responsive group. Sometimes a project just makes
> sense to have a small number of people on it. I used to have a boss that said
> that it was a mathematical certainty that as the number of people in a
> working group increased, the effectiveness decreased.
>
> (And no, these 10 were chosen based on two things an two things alone: micro
> building skill, and professionalism. I was the person responsible for
> choosing the team, and I didn't think one time about which side of the color
> change debate the fell on. Not once.)
I didn't make these accusations of chossing the AFOLs according to their
feelings on the color-change issue. I didn't even think about it to be honest.
> > And before anyone starts ranting, this isn't about the color-change at all.
> > It's about respect for the AFOLs. This website is intended primarily for
> > children who like micro-scale towns, not for the majority of AFOL. I am
> > sure most people here do not really care about it. Although it's a great
> > tool for those who are concerned, it's not any good to most of us.
>
> You're right, this site is targeted, mainly, to children. That's our core
> business. We're doing as much as we can to deliver products that work for
> both kid and adult audiences, but the reality is that a vast majority of our
> consumers are kids.
>
> But again, look at the big picture. Computers didn't first start at $500 for
> a 3ghz machine. They started as room sized things that wouldn't power my cell
> phone today. If you were to look at the early days and say "well, average
> people can't use these room sized monstrocities, so computers must be
> irrelevant", it would be missing the bigger picture.
Errr... Yeah... Anyway, What I meant was that the concept is not as appealing
to castle-fans of space-fans, so I guess most of them (consider me part of both
groups) will wait for the Factory to widen its range of themes. But it's pure
speculation, I may be entirely wrong here.
> > IMHO, TLG can't expect us AFOLs to forgive and forget the way we were
> > treated with the color-change by asking 10 AFOLs to help them make a cool
> > project even better.
>
> I'm honestly confused. I thought you didn't think much of the micro/LEGO
> Factory concept. But now you're saying you think it's cool. Perhaps I
> missunderstood?
I said it didn't appeal to me, but I also said it was a cool tool for those who
are into that theme. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a real town series, not with
just police and fire-fighters, but with houses and stores. If Factory wasn't
about micro-scale, I'd totally be into it. Still, before we can produce our own
sets, there's just a website and a LEGO opening to AFOLs. It's still not enough
YET for me to say that TLG has made a real effort to gain our respect back.
> > I guess some may reply that they feel TLG has redeemed itself, that they
> > didn't need to in the first place or things like that. I accept the fact
> > that everyone has his opinion. However, there is an important part of this
> > community that feels TLG has mistreated us and that we deserve a better
> > treatment in the future. I understand that AFOLs are not a big part of the
> > market, so maybe we don't really matter in the end. But it saddens me to
> > hear people rant (like me) about how they love the LEGO bricks, but not the
> > company anymore.
>
> There is a massive difference between small part of the market and thinking
> that small part of the market "doesn't matter". I've always maintained that
> AFOLs are a very important group of people. In the last two years, the
> thinking of many of my colleagues has changed to that belief too.
>
> Just look at the concept at play with LEGO Factory and then think about the
> bigger picture... we're allowing LEGO builders to actively be part of the
> product design and product selection process. We've included a group of AFOLs
> in the concepting process. We've designed the contest in such a way that 20%
> of the winners will be adults. A few years ago, NONE of this would have
> happened. Who knows where we'll be in a few more years.
Agreed, but you make it sound as though the inability to adjust to reality
sooner and include AFOLs into the big picture is something that is okay and that
now that they have adjusted, we should praise them.
In Québec, we allowed women to vote in 1945 (or around those years, but in the
late 40). I don't think it would be okay to say "Hey, we allowed them to vote,
who knows where we'll be in a few more years. They might get full legal
reconition eventually!" The rest of the world had allowed women to vote much
earlier. We were late and I'm ashamed of this part of my countries' history.
The point I am trying to make is that being late on something and then catching
on is not something to be proud of in my opinion. There's still catching up to
do. AFOLs have been creating MOCs way cooler than the models sold by TLG for
years, yet TLG just started to look for our help. Jon Palmer make amazing
models with about as many parts as a normal A-wing, but with much more style.
Yet LEGO still makes models as horrible as the Tie-Bomber (I "hate" this model
and regret having bought it). But I've gotten a bit out of the discussion here.
Back to our discussion.
> > Is your excitement about the fact that for a change, TLG has included some
> > AFOLs in a nice project? Do I completely miss the point here?
>
> Once again, with all due respect (text is such a bad communication medium),
> you admitted not having fully researched the concept. As such, I do think you
> are missing at least some of the points of why this is so cool. It's not all
> about what's here today, its about what we've started.
Indeed. I did miss some points. Thanks for pointing them out.
> > I hope I am
> > and you can explain to me why I should feel happy about this, so I can start
> > saying "I love and respect the LEGO company once again"... not just their
> > older bricks.
>
> I'm not sure I can explain why you should be happy. I can try to explain the
> significance, and hope that makes you happy. I know the color change has had
> a deep and harsh effect on you, and that you are upset to this day. I'm not
> sure I'll/we'll ever be able to do anything to get you saying "I love and
> respect the LEGO Company again". If I'm wrong, please let me know.
You are wrong. I could and hope I will learn to respect and love the company
again. But for this, I think AFOLs (and i don't mean me, I'm not as good as
some AFOLs I see here day after day like Jon Palmer or Eric Sophie to name only
two) have to be treated with way more respect. This means telling us in advance
what is coming up if we will be affected by it. It means promising (and keeping
those promises) that color or such significant issues won't be changed again
without a fair warning so we can stockpile. It means above all being treated
not as a small market, but as a small partner in the way that we make free
publicity for the products. I don't know of any other company that can claim
they have such a strong community-based adult fanclub.
> Anyway, I hope this message is read with the voice I intended. I know it may
> sound like I'm upset, but I'm not at all... just the nature of the text
> communication.
Same here.
Terry
Average AFOL.
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Behind the curtains - LEGO Factory AFOL Project Team
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| In lugnet.lego, Terry Prosper wrote: -- snip tons of good stuff -- Thanks for the long response. Not much to follow-up on, save this one thing: (...) You make very good points. Think what you will about the company, but when you think of me (...) (20 years ago, 18-Nov-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Behind the curtains - LEGO Factory AFOL Project Team
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| (...) Like you, I debated for a while on whether to respond. Text is such a bad medium for communication, especially if you have a dry sense of humor like I do. Please read the message is the most positive way you can, as I'm not at all upset as I (...) (20 years ago, 17-Nov-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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