 | | New Product Announcement - 10152
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As many of you have seen from the leaked pictures online, we have released a new set: 10152 – Maersk Container Ship. Build the Most Famous Cargo Liner in the World! Maersk Sealand cargo liners sail the seas all over the world, carrying valuable (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.lego.announce, FTX) !!
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) <snip details> Awesome news - thanks for the confirmation! John #388 (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) grumblegrumbleofcour...blegrumble (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Once again, S@H comes through.... THANK YOU THANK YOU......THANK YOU, and in case you did not understand....THANK YOU!!!...!!! I guarantee I'll be placing my order. Thank you :-) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) I see no reason why it cant be made available to australia and new zealand given that stuff we get comes from the exact same warehouse that people in europe get their shop @ home items. Jake, can you look into why this isnt listed on (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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"Geoff Gray" <geoffgr@comporium.net> wrote in message news:Hxv45u.3zs@lugnet.com... [ ... snipped ... ] (...) in (...) Agreed. I placed a pre-order with S@H-NA earlier this morning and was told they would ship in late May. Since it is already May (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) As of a few min ago, it wasn't listed on the US site yet (happy to be proven wrong, mind you!) so it may just have been an omission on Jake's part to not mention Australia (and etc)... That's just speculation on my part but I hope it's helpful (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) I should have been more clear about this. All Shope At Home items (minus a few exceptions) that are available in Europe are also available to Australia and New Zealand. The 10152 is available to you as well, but the product isn't loaded on the (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote: <snip> (...) I just pre-ordered 1 from phone S@H in Enfield. Donna was very nice and informed me that she has already received many phone calls from *very* happy FOL's. She also mentioned that the shipments should (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Well, I'm going to press "REFRESH" a lot today! /\/\ark "still no 10152 on the dutch site" de Kock (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Just wanted to say THANKS! Although TLG has made some poor decisions (in my opinion), they've also done some wonderful things lately. Let's hope they keep up the latter! -Bryan (whose credit card has also been hurting recently) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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snip Appears to be 12 studs wide, and about 83-85 studs long! Scott Lyttle (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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"Jake McKee" <jacob.mckee@america.lego.com> wrote in message news:Hxv0An.1Hnx@lugnet.com... (...) set (...) Hey now! Why do I always seem to be the one singled out? I am by far not the only person that buys a lot of Lego! :) Besides, i'm out of (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) I hear ya, Troy! Between the F1 and the other thing, my credit card's not happy at all. I think that TLC should try to pace themselves thru the year with these new sets and/or announcements, instead of all at once! :) Dave K -who's entire (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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"Troy's Surplus Lego" <legosales@tcphoto.net> wrote in message news:HxvBB9.1Eu8@lugnet.com... (...) Just a hunch but maybe because of pictures like these? (URL) Mike Walsh - mike_walsh at mindspring.com (URL) - North Carolina LEGO Train Club (URL) (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | RE: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Are you saying you did NOT order your 5 then? Snicker™ Sharkey (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Maybe, just maybe, because of pictures that you publish on Brickshelf: (URL) dunno..... (...) That's what credit cards ar for. You're not the only one hurting moneywise, but there's always room for a little bit more hurt.... Paul (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Thanks for the info Jake. Do you know if this set will be for sale at LLCA? I have never seen a "S@H only" set not show up at LLCA. Thanks Mark P (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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"Mark P" <mark@landofbricks.com> wrote in message news:HxvEHv.207p@lugnet.com... (...) Europe (...) should (...) Europe. (...) LLCA? I (...) It's on the web now: (URL) price listed yet. Mike (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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"Mike Walsh" <mike_walsh@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:HxvEr2.228K@lugnet.com... (...) [ ... snipped ... ] (...) [ ... snipped ... ] Replying to my own message .... ;-) Do my eyes deceive me or is the hull of this ship dark red? (URL) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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As of a few minutes ago this set is available for back-order (i.e. the price is now posted) on the Americas S@H site. I'm waiting for better pictures/inventory - it looks like it may include an orange piece that has not been previously available, (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Hi Jake, thank you for the information, really nice set, well done!!! (Fancy that, we planned this set to be announced at the 1000steineland 2004 :-) Here are some better pictures: (2 URLs) Leg Godt! René (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Hey, that's great. Nautica sets again! While I read this I am both thrilled and somewhat despondant. I LOVE the design, the use of that old-space blue and part-per-buck content. The thing that jandices me a bit is not this set, but the issues (...) (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Thank you Jake! This is an awesome set, and this is the most excited I've been over a set since main street. Keep them coming :) Thanks!!! James (21 years ago, 17-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Question for you. Is there any possiblity that if the set sells well, that another production run using a different color would be created? Maybe a drastically different but still fairly rare color like dark red or something? I know you can't (...) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) World City harbour? Makes me wonder if there harbor sets upcoming, or if this is merely a benign phrase. On the box, the shadows behind the boat are the cranes from 6542, if I am not mistaken. Anyway, compliments to TLC for releasing this nice (...) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Cool. I retract my grumbling. Any Briburnians care to go in for a joint order? Hang on, we'll still only be able to get a max. of 5 even on a joint order won't we? I only want one, but I don't think it'd take much to exceed the maximum. A (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au)
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(...) I was thinking that maybe they were ready to go sooner? Or the leaks forced their hands? Well on the bright side maybe Jake will come up with a nifty surprise for you next month. Thanks for the better pics! (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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Anyone know how much lt-bley, dk-bley and chocolate brown this set includes? Hopefully we can get an inventory soon and find out for sure :) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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(...) A few exceptions? What exceptions? (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au)
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Thank you, LEGO, for making this available to the public. Placed my order this afternoon and I can't wait to build it. On a related note, it has already (surprise! surprise!) made its first appearence on eBay : (URL) added it to my watch list to see (...) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Thanks for the pictures - definitely the clearest I've seen so far. I'm hoping that the pieces on the back of the orange vents/cowlings/whate...r-they-are next to the bridge are orange Brick 2x1 with Curved Top: [LDrawPart 6091:25] It looks (...) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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(...) Funny. When talking to Maersk the other day they told me that it is for internal use only. I am not sure whether I need this set. It is great, but I really dont have the need. BR Sonnich (URL) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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They look like the piece, and they probably are orange, since that is the correct color for... FYI, I'm pretty sure those are supposed to be the self-contained-atmosphere lifeboats that are placed on some ships. The ones I've seen simply tilt on a (...) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Hmmm...mmm that seller is from the U.S. yet he is allready selling this? How is THAT? Unless Europe allready shipped and he got one from them.Other wise he is selling something he does not have! I know that is against BL rules what what Ebay?? Chris (...) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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(...) Yeah he's probably timing it so that by the time the auction ends, he'll have the set in his hands... What's really sad is that the current highest bid is much more than the regular price of the set - even if you factor in the S@H shipping (...) (21 years ago, 18-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Looks like he's not the only one- (URL) Adr. (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.market.shopping, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152 - NOW SHIPPING!
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I just got an email notice that my copy of 10152 has shipped. It looks like it became available about a month early. The web site says "available now" as well, instead of something like "will ship by xxx" Note: Sorry if this was already posted, but (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.market.shopping)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152 - NOW SHIPPING!
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(...) I just received notice too! It's scheduled to be delivered to me via UPS on Friday :) Julie (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.market.shopping)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) I think it's the crane from set #4514 instead, because in the shadow image that you've mentioned, you can see a contour of the sideways mounted floodlights at the end of the boom. It's a detail typical for set #4514. See: (URL) friendly (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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(...) I't not to avoid a vortex (you should have abandoned ship well before this happens) but to quickly escape spread-out fire caused by burning oil or fuel floating on the water. And they are much safer to launch into a rough sea, compaired to (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Jake: The containers look to be 2 studs wide which makes this about 1/2 minifig scale. Do you know if the design scales up? I mean if you had two (or three) sets could you build it wider and longer and have a minfig scale ship? I guess it comes down (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | A little math cioncerning ships, containers and Minifigs
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(...) Well, this comes down to simple math: if you want to double a threedimensional object in all dimensions, you basically need 2x2x2=8 times the material. Thats the easy answer. Concerning scale: The containers on the ship are 1.6cm wide and (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Dear Jake, I received shipping notification yesterday, as did others. Please give me the company that unloads freigth containers, gets them through customs, unpacks containers and ships them to customers, all within 24 hours. Many compnaies in (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) It's not that anything was incorrect, but that multiple tasks that typically (or at least often) take longer to come together worked out lighting fast this time around. When I first posted, the latest data was that we would need until June to (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | RE: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Jake Paul was NOT complaining....;-) As Lar says.... "under promise & over deliver" Thanx for the GREAT set AND unexpected early delivery...:-D Thanx, Mark Millere Visit Milissa's Lego™ Store, Millere's Spares™ (URL) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Although I do not mind, you did write that the sets "...are on their way to North America..". I do not mind faster shipping, but as I do import stuff for my lab and as a company rep. as part of my job(s), and deal with customs myself (tons of (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: A little math cioncerning ships, containers and Minifigs
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(...) That's true for a solid object, but as the 8wide fans point out to me all the time when I use this scaleup against them, this object isn't completely solid. you may not need 8 times as much hull brick to make a 2x hull, for example. (howver (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Nope. I've written every word (minus the S@H product descriptions) you've seen me post on LUGNET for my 4+ years I've been posting. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I just meant they are on their way to your house, (shipping, unpacking, (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Yup! I was thinking when I read your post of a big Maersk blue ship with Maersk blue containers carrying Maersk blue ships with white and grey containers, when I was made rudely aware that they are already in a plain brown boxes in nasty brown (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Apparently some of the Germans have already received theirs. Some close-up pictures are posted at: (URL) still looks really good. The one disappointing thing I see is that one of the two rows of the Maersk-blue bricks are 1x4 L-wall panels, not (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) The thing I dislike about those 1x4 L-wall panels is that the corners are rounded! So when you line a bunch of them together, there are small indentations at the joints. :( Also, is that a new bow plate? It appears to be 12-studs wide. -Bryan (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: A little math cioncerning ships, containers and Minifigs
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(...) Excluding all internal supports and bracing, what we are really concerned about is surface area, since that's the brick we see. If an object is scaled up 2 times, its surface area goes up by a factor of 4. Thus, you would need, at minimum, 4 (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: A little math cioncerning ships, containers and Minifigs
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(...) Compare with my 40ft container 40' x 8' x 9'6" high: (URL) Apart from it needing the Maersk blue bits for the star, I'd ideally like to make a ship to 8mm:1ft scale with these containers onboard, multiplying all dimensions by 4! The ship would (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: A little math cioncerning ships, containers and Minifigs
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(...) (snip) (...) Well, that's sharp and all, but I think building to scale really misses the point. That container's 8 wide! I prefer my scenes more packed with detail rather than doing one 10 foot long ship so that I can fit my to scale (...) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.boats, lugnet.trains, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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My biggest dislike is all the Bley and chocolate brown :( But the rest of the set (all the windows, maresk blue etc) is so good that I just gotta get one :) (21 years ago, 19-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Nah. You're not in trouble for this. I damn near jumped out of my skin with excitement when I got my tracking numbers this morning. Besides, I think Paul is just trying to get information from you. At least Christian hasn't jumped in on this (...) (21 years ago, 20-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | I got my Maersk in NH; was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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In lugnet.lego, Jake McKee wrote: SNIP (...) Today (Thursday 5-20-04) I just got my 2 sets that i ordered monday nite!!!! I thought the Lego shop site said it would ship by 5-26-04. Oh,I'm in New Hampshire. I've never seen Maersk blue b4, so for (...) (21 years ago, 20-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: I got my Maersk in NH; was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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Rather than sift through all the replies in all the threads, can someone who owns it and has it built tell me if its minifig scale? Like can a figure fit inside it? thanks --member 1893 (21 years ago, 22-May-04, to lugnet.lego, FTX)
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| | Re: I got my Maersk in NH; was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) No, it's not. See a few topics ago: "A little math concerning containers and minifigs" (or something similar)... Duq (21 years ago, 22-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: I got my Maersk in NH; was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Let me get this straight. Rather than do any work yourself, you'd prefer someone else to do it for you? I know how challanging it would be too look at the pictures or read the posts to figure out the answer. Sheesh. No, it's not minifig scale. (...) (21 years ago, 22-May-04, to lugnet.lego)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) I was wondeing...how do LEGO work out their prices? By my calculation, 10152 is being sold at the following: $74.99 US is roughly $105 AUS £54.99 is roughly $140 Aus EURO 79,99 is roughly $136 AUS $144.95 AUS (About 30% higher outside North (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Well I have actually noticed that although new products may show up on NA S@H first, often they start shipping to Europe before NA, as was the case with the Maersk ship. Still doesn't explain the price discrepancies though. ROSCO (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) What I was actually referring to was more along the lines of 200x sets arriving in stores in the US in November 200x-1 while to the rest of the world it is a 200x release date. [Out of curiosity: 1) is it now officially a 200x-1 set as it was (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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<snip> (...) Benjamin, I believe that the answer is (at least) twofold: 1. LEGO's way of setting prices for different markets is very complex (I believe that Jake has stated this before), and the price only partially depends on what the given market (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Add Czech Republic to the list. I wrote a small script to recompute the czech MSRP (price / 1.19 / 27 ) = 19% is the tax, 27 Kc per 1 US dollar. Then I divided czech price by US MSRP price and got: 1.00-1.20x = Orient Expedition, Belvile, (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) And all this doesn't take into account other taxes Americans pay yearly. * personal property tax * vehicle tax * sin tax (cigs, alcohol, and other "non-necessary things) * gasoline tax (30-40 cents per gallon?) * Medicaire (not a tax) * Social (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) I'd encourage this subthread to migrate away from the current groups and into off-topic.debate if it goes too much further into comparative analysis of countries... I XFUT there already. (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Builtin taxes: gasoline, other fuels, alcohol, cigarettes (at least). I think about 90% of gasoline price is various taxes. health security (in fact a tax) social security (in fact a tax) tax from immobilities (is it 'personal property tax'?) (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Yup, the UK's pretty bad too - VAT at 17.5% on most goods (included in the price though), the fuel tax is incredibly high (about 86%) plus you have to pay road tax just to have your vehicle on the road. Alcohol and Tobacco taxes are high as (...) (20 years ago, 27-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Why Lego acts unfairly (was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152)
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(...) Well, I know of two theories: 1. The Whinging Australian(s) Theory One or more Australians whinge about the Lego company in Australia, the product availability in Australia or even the price in Australia. The Lego company does not like this (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.loc.au, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Well, I still don't see why they shouldn't equalize the playing field...If they can afford to be selling the sets at $X in North America, then why don't they try and INCREASE sales by selling sets at this price EVERYWHERE. After all, Megabloks (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: Why Lego acts unfairly (was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152)
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(...) You fogot the really important one... 3. The WMD theory If you don't give us what we want we'll accuse you of having WMD's and invade. After all, how else do you explain the colour of your mini-figs. Of course, this may not be correct either (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.loc.au, FTX)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Oh, boy, don't I wish I had something to say about Lego's pricing! Mark (North American) P.S. I feel your pain, really, I do! :-) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Well, your list matches mine here in Germany, with two notable exceptions: We pay about EUR1.20 (US$1.44) per liter gasoline, of which EUR0.90 to 0.95 are taxes. With 4.55 liter being a gallon, and the Euro at about US$1.20 we pay roughly US$5 (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general)
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| | Re: Why Lego acts unfairly (was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152)
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(...) I think Lego Australia should review there pricing policy, as competition here in Australia is growing with respect to brick sales. Lately, over the past 6 months I have noticed in Kmart and Big W stores the gradual reduction in the amount of (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.loc.au, FTX)
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| | Re: Why Lego acts unfairly (was Re: New Product Announcement - 10152)
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(...) Having flirted with the Dark Side on occasion, I would have to say that MB is never as good as Lego, but I have found its Pro-Builder sets to be acceptable and its Castle sets awful in terms of brick interconnecting. I also used to find their (...) (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.loc.au)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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FUT: lugnet.off-topic.debate "Christian Treczoks" <ct@braehler.com> wrote in message news:HyExHu.GGK@lugnet.com... (...) Actually there is a mistake. 1 gallon = 3.8 liters, not 4.55 liters. (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.lego, lugnet.loc.au, lugnet.general, lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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An Imperial Gallon is 4.55L. (URL) Christian probably should have converted to US gal in this particular case. (...) -- Tom Stangl *(URL) Visual FAQ home *(URL) Visual FAQ Home (20 years ago, 28-May-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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n_okla@hotmail.com (Neb Okla) wrote in <HyFsM8.vAx@lugnet.com>: (...) Actually, both are correct. 1 US gallon is 3.785 litres, 1 UK gallon is 4.545 litres. One more reason to go metric. (20 years ago, 1-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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| | Re: New Product Announcement - 10152
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(...) Now I know why 10 gallon hats are so small. ;) Scott A (Who thought {everything} was bigger in the USA) (20 years ago, 1-Jun-04, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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