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I have a few more pirate game questions for those of you with more
experience..
1. It says all damage is simultaneous during combat. Does that mean ALL
combat, or each type of combat? For instance, if a pirate is shot by a
cannon, does he still get to fire his musket? Or if a pirate is killed
by a musket, can he still attack with his cutlass?
2. It says that the ship can turn once at the beginning of its movement.
What if you want to move 6", turn, then move 6", does it take extra crew
actions for this? If you didn't use the free turn in the beginning, can
you apply it in the middle of your move?
3. If a sailor needs to move to accomplish something like loading a
cannon, does he get to move and load the cannon in the same turn, or
does his movement count as his action during the turn and he'll load it
next turn?
4. If a sailor wants to be 'prudent' (aka jump overboard on a sinking
ship) does he need to declare that as his action during the turn, or can
he fire a musket and then jump before the hull damage phase?
5. When a cannon is close to 'crossing the T' of another ship, is the
attacking player required to take the crossing the T minus to hit in
exchange for two damage rolls? Or can they decide which way they want to
play it? If they have multiple cannons, could they choose differently
for each?
6. A player doesn't want his ship to move, but hasn't dropped anchor.
However, he doesn't want to spend any crew actions sailing so all of his
guys could shoot their muskets. I say at this point the referee gets to
move the ship according to the unmanned ship rules. My friend who didn't
want his ship to move, pointed to the rule saying you can just let the
wind slip from your sails. Who is right?
7. Tactical Question - It seems to us after playing, that its vastly
more effective to always aim at the deck and never bother with
grapeshot. It takes forever to do enough hull or rigging damage to make
them worthwhile. Grapeshot is just to risky and doesn't do enough
damage to justify the risk. I could see where in a campaign game if you
were just trying to escape another foe that rigging shots could be worth
it. Do you think we just aren't following the rules properly?
Thanks in advance!
Roy
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In lugnet.pirates, Roy Riggs writes:
> I have a few more pirate game questions for those of you with more
> experience..
>
> 1. It says all damage is simultaneous during combat. Does that mean ALL
> combat, or each type of combat? For instance, if a pirate is shot by a
> cannon, does he still get to fire his musket? Or if a pirate is killed
> by a musket, can he still attack with his cutlass?
Hmmmm, well, I handled cannon fire during ship movement, then resolved
minifig combat. Part of this is answered below.
>
> 2. It says that the ship can turn once at the beginning of its movement.
> What if you want to move 6", turn, then move 6", does it take extra crew
> actions for this?
Yes.
> If you didn't use the free turn in the beginning, can
> you apply it in the middle of your move?
No. The purpose is to allow you to change course based on the events as
they stood at the end of the previous game turn.
>
> 3. If a sailor needs to move to accomplish something like loading a
> cannon, does he get to move and load the cannon in the same turn, or
> does his movement count as his action during the turn and he'll load it
> next turn?
Kinda grey - movement isn't specifically listed as an "action". At the same
time, boarding combat specifically says you can move and fight.
Significantly, the other actions don't list movement. I would think not for
cannon.
>
> 4. If a sailor wants to be 'prudent' (aka jump overboard on a sinking
> ship) does he need to declare that as his action during the turn, or can
> he fire a musket and then jump before the hull damage phase?
Move and fight, fight and move. Since there aren't any reload rules, I'd
probably opt for not allowing movement and firing, but as the rules stand, I
would think you can.
>
> 5. When a cannon is close to 'crossing the T' of another ship, is the
> attacking player required to take the crossing the T minus to hit in
> exchange for two damage rolls? Or can they decide which way they want to
> play it? If they have multiple cannons, could they choose differently
> for each?
The ship does not magically turn sideways, so no, you shouldn't have a
choice. You have a narrow target but if you hit it, the ball is going to
travel along the length of the ship, creating havoc.
>
> 6. A player doesn't want his ship to move, but hasn't dropped anchor.
> However, he doesn't want to spend any crew actions sailing so all of his
> guys could shoot their muskets. I say at this point the referee gets to
> move the ship according to the unmanned ship rules. My friend who didn't
> want his ship to move, pointed to the rule saying you can just let the
> wind slip from your sails. Who is right?
He has left the ship to drift. The rule about spilling wind is if you are
actually moving (and have commited at least some crew to sailing). Without
some sort of "way" (movement through the water) a ship had no control
("She's not answerin' the 'elm, Cap'n!"). If he's just flapping his sails,
he's at the mercy of the tides, current, and wind.
>
> 7. Tactical Question - It seems to us after playing, that its vastly
> more effective to always aim at the deck and never bother with
> grapeshot. It takes forever to do enough hull or rigging damage to make
> them worthwhile. Grapeshot is just to risky and doesn't do enough
> damage to justify the risk. I could see where in a campaign game if you
> were just trying to escape another foe that rigging shots could be worth
> it. Do you think we just aren't following the rules properly?
>
> Thanks in advance!
> Roy
I'm not sure I agree with the results that you get from the rules as it
stands, so I tend to feel it is a matter of balance. Historically, shooting
up the rigging (a favorite French tactic) didn't work that well in actually
winning a fight. If the other ship had carronades (short range cannons that
throw heavy shot), or I was trying to sail away, I'd think about it.
Grapeshot was something you only really used prepatory to boarding (or
preventing such). Hull shots: it wasn't that easy to sink a wooden ship
quickly. But I'm not sure that aiming at the hull and the deck was
something that was that precise. You could aim low, hoping for a below
waterline hit, but you caused the most casualties with solid shot by hitting
the hull (flying splinters). I'm in favor of combining the two charts for
solid shot.
Hopefully Frank Filz will give you a response - I'd trust his opinion over
mine in regards to the intent of the rules.
Bruce
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Bruce Schlickbernd wrote:
> In lugnet.pirates, Roy Riggs writes:
> > I have a few more pirate game questions for those of you with more
> > experience..
<re-ordering...>
> Hopefully Frank Filz will give you a response - I'd trust his opinion over
> mine in regards to the intent of the rules.
Hopefully Steve will chime in also (Steve are you there?). You may also
want to e-mail Steve directly.
Some general thoughts:
- Note that the game was developed as a game mastered game, so the rules
have some imprecision.
- The game also has a primary purpose of fun as opposed to simulation
- A game master has an obligation to try and make the game fun for the
players, this involves balancing the conflicting needs of "rules lawyer"
players and "hey I just want to sail my ship around, role play a bit,
and shoot up some Imperials" players.
I've trimmed the questions that I don't have anything to add to what
Bruce said.
> > 1. It says all damage is simultaneous during combat. Does that mean ALL
> > combat, or each type of combat? For instance, if a pirate is shot by a
> > cannon, does he still get to fire his musket? Or if a pirate is killed
> > by a musket, can he still attack with his cutlass?
>
> Hmmmm, well, I handled cannon fire during ship movement, then resolved
> minifig combat. Part of this is answered below.
Yes, the two types of combat are distinct. Each phase is taken in turn,
and all activity within a phase is simultaneous.
> > 3. If a sailor needs to move to accomplish something like loading a
> > cannon, does he get to move and load the cannon in the same turn, or
> > does his movement count as his action during the turn and he'll load it
> > next turn?
>
> Kinda grey - movement isn't specifically listed as an "action". At the same
> time, boarding combat specifically says you can move and fight.
> Significantly, the other actions don't list movement. I would think not for
> cannon.
Note that movement is during a separate phase from cannon fire or small
arms fire, though crew is allowed to move 1" to dodge cannon. I'd be
inclined to allow crew within 1" of a cannon to man the cannon.
For my own game, I will be doing some thinking about cannon. I've been
thinking about changing how many cannon are allowed etc. So I will
probably revisit this. I do want to end up with less complex rules if at
all possible.
> > 4. If a sailor wants to be 'prudent' (aka jump overboard on a sinking
> > ship) does he need to declare that as his action during the turn, or can
> > he fire a musket and then jump before the hull damage phase?
>
> Move and fight, fight and move. Since there aren't any reload rules, I'd
> probably opt for not allowing movement and firing, but as the rules stand, I
> would think you can.
Based on the phasing, movement comes before small arms fire, so I would
say "being prudent" is a movement action.
In fact, looking at the phasing, I'm inclined to move crew movement to
before cannon fire (hmm, no, just changed my mind). Part of me also
wants to require some of the sailing crew to be aloft, but I'm not sure
how to handle this, and not all ship models can actually have crew aloft
(though I'm converting ships to studs up spars, I finally completed my
first SES which has been languishing for over a year without spars and
sails - not only did I do her with studs up spars, but she also got red
spars, I also finally fitted out the Red Seas Barracuda with her red
spars - thanks everyone who traded me red 1x4 plates with towball).
I think the purpose of putting crew movement after cannon fire was to
allow the crew phases to be skipped if they didn't matter much due to
distance between ships.
> > 5. When a cannon is close to 'crossing the T' of another ship, is the
> > attacking player required to take the crossing the T minus to hit in
> > exchange for two damage rolls? Or can they decide which way they want to
> > play it? If they have multiple cannons, could they choose differently
> > for each?
>
> The ship does not magically turn sideways, so no, you shouldn't have a
> choice. You have a narrow target but if you hit it, the ball is going to
> travel along the length of the ship, creating havoc.
Here's a thought for a pretty simple rule for determining if you're
crossing the T. From the cannon closest to the enemy ship, trace a
straight line the direction the cannon is pointing. If the line crosses
the curved portion of a bow or stern section and exits the ship in a
different hull section, you are crossing the T. This actually amounts to
just about 45 degrees to either side of the centerline, so perhaps
that's the best rule, though that seems a bit restrictive, on the other
hand, it also fits the compass points. So, I'm inclined to make the
simple rule stand. Another simple rule would be 22.5 degrees to either
side of the center line. This also is a reasonable measure to use since
it fits with how you determine which compass point your ship is on in
gauging wind effects.
> > 7. Tactical Question - It seems to us after playing, that its vastly
> > more effective to always aim at the deck and never bother with
> > grapeshot. It takes forever to do enough hull or rigging damage to make
> > them worthwhile. Grapeshot is just to risky and doesn't do enough
> > damage to justify the risk. I could see where in a campaign game if you
> > were just trying to escape another foe that rigging shots could be worth
> > it. Do you think we just aren't following the rules properly?
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> > Roy
>
> I'm not sure I agree with the results that you get from the rules as it
> stands, so I tend to feel it is a matter of balance. Historically, shooting
> up the rigging (a favorite French tactic) didn't work that well in actually
> winning a fight. If the other ship had carronades (short range cannons that
> throw heavy shot), or I was trying to sail away, I'd think about it.
> Grapeshot was something you only really used prepatory to boarding (or
> preventing such). Hull shots: it wasn't that easy to sink a wooden ship
> quickly. But I'm not sure that aiming at the hull and the deck was
> something that was that precise. You could aim low, hoping for a below
> waterline hit, but you caused the most casualties with solid shot by hitting
> the hull (flying splinters). I'm in favor of combining the two charts for
> solid shot.
Per http://news.lugnet.com/fun/gaming/?n=419 Steve Jackson himself
admits that the damage charts are flawed. He indicated he would like to
encourage more hull shots.
Frank
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> > 7. Tactical Question - It seems to us after playing, that its vastly
> > more effective to always aim at the deck and never bother with
> > grapeshot. It takes forever to do enough hull or rigging damage to make
> > them worthwhile. Grapeshot is just to risky and doesn't do enough
> > damage to justify the risk. I could see where in a campaign game if you
> > were just trying to escape another foe that rigging shots could be worth
> > it. Do you think we just aren't following the rules properly?
Hmmm, I put the grapeshot question to Mr. Jackson in the following
exhange:
SB: Why is there a -6 to hit with Grapeshot - it fires out of the cannon in
a cone, so it's pretty hard to miss at close-ranges. Wouldn't a harsher
range-modifier be better?
SJ: We've tried several things. I'm still not happy.
I decided on a -1 penalty to hit with grapeshot for every 6" you are
from your target. It seemed to work pretty well...
Steve
> >
> > Thanks in advance!
> > Roy
>
> I'm not sure I agree with the results that you get from the rules as it
> stands, so I tend to feel it is a matter of balance. Historically, • shooting
> up the rigging (a favorite French tactic) didn't work that well in • actually
> winning a fight. If the other ship had carronades (short range cannons • that
> throw heavy shot), or I was trying to sail away, I'd think about it.
> Grapeshot was something you only really used prepatory to boarding (or
> preventing such). Hull shots: it wasn't that easy to sink a wooden ship
> quickly. But I'm not sure that aiming at the hull and the deck was
> something that was that precise. You could aim low, hoping for a below
> waterline hit, but you caused the most casualties with solid shot by • hitting
> the hull (flying splinters). I'm in favor of combining the two charts for
> solid shot.
>
> Hopefully Frank Filz will give you a response - I'd trust his opinion over
> mine in regards to the intent of the rules.
>
> Bruce
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OK, a few of these have already been answered so I'll only answer the ones I
have a contribution for...
> 3. If a sailor needs to move to accomplish something like loading a
> cannon, does he get to move and load the cannon in the same turn, or
> does his movement count as his action during the turn and he'll load it
> next turn?
Depends... It says in the rules to ignore the placing of figures during
ship-to-ship combat (i.e. the captain doesn't need to be by a cannon to fire
it, you don't need 4 crew in the rigging etc.). In boarding actions however
it's a different manner. In this case I would say that any crew member not
by a cannon in the cannon firing phase, can't contribute to the firing of
that cannon (although the 1" rule mentioned here seems fine to me, but I run
my games a little loose in distance interpretation anyway)
> 4. If a sailor wants to be 'prudent' (aka jump overboard on a sinking
> ship) does he need to declare that as his action during the turn, or can
> he fire a musket and then jump before the hull damage phase?
As movement comes before firing then I'd say no - you'd have to forfeit
your firing (he could still fire a cannon though .)
> 5. When a cannon is close to 'crossing the T' of another ship, is the
> attacking player required to take the crossing the T minus to hit in
> exchange for two damage rolls? Or can they decide which way they want to
> play it? If they have multiple cannons, could they choose differently
> for each?
Nope, you have to take the -2 (which is due to the way a boat's hull is
angled to deflect shots). IIRC, rigging and deck shots aren't at any penalty
though...
> 7. Tactical Question - It seems to us after playing, that its vastly
> more effective to always aim at the deck and never bother with
> grapeshot. It takes forever to do enough hull or rigging damage to make
> them worthwhile. Grapeshot is just to risky and doesn't do enough
> damage to justify the risk. I could see where in a campaign game if you
> were just trying to escape another foe that rigging shots could be worth
> it. Do you think we just aren't following the rules properly?
Rigging shots are useful if someone's outrunning you and you want to
capture the ship intact... Deck shots are useful when closing to board (esp.
if using grapeshot) and Hull shots are good for ranged battles with a ship
you don't particularly want to capture (Warships mainly), especially if you
outgun your opponent...
Steve
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