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All you BrikWars guys. Particularly, Mike Rayhawk.
I am preparing to field a Medieval army and I have some suggestions
for changes. Looking at the charts for hand-held missile weapons, the
range for bows seems too short.
There are three major types of bows in pre-gunpowder combat. I'd
suggest the following changes.
Cross Bow: 1UR when used one-handed
Short Bow: 6" range
Long Bow: 12" range, 1d6 damage, 1CP, 1UR, TL2
LBows would need to be distinguished from SBows. Add a piece, like
rifles.
I think this would reflect what a LBow can really do. My biggest
problem with the current system is that a bow can only be used when a
melee opponent is one turn distant. A long bow is very effective at
50-300 feet. A line of archers should have two flights off before a
charging footmen can reach them. A mounted charge should be a race
whether the second shot can be fired.
I think these changes would reflect that. BTW, assuming the SBow as
a base bow, the LBow would be SBow w/ +1TL(-1CP), +6"(+1.5CP), +1UR (-
1CP), +1 damage(+0.5CP) = 1 - 1 + 1.5 - 1 + 0.5 = 1CP.
Thoughts?
On a seperate note, but related, I can't find the rules for
acceleration. I see references to them. I see a way to ignore them.
I can't find the actual rules. Is this a subtle way to suggest they
should be ignored? <voice style="pitiful, squeaky"> help </voice>.
I also have some thoughts on spears and lances. But I need to work
those out in my head.
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> I am preparing to field a Medieval army and I have some suggestions
> for changes. Looking at the charts for hand-held missile weapons, the
> range for bows seems too short.
It's true; we were trying to keep the range lower than Pistols, which had to
be lower than Rifles, which had to be lower than Siege Weapons, which had to
be lower than two feet or nobody would be able to clear enough space for a
proper battlefield. You're absolutely right, though, a Longbow's range should
rival or exceed that of most rifles' effective range; the problem is
differentiating between a Longbow and a Shortbow. The bow piece is not real
easy to modify; the best you can do is hook a claw piece on the handle to make
it look like a combination bow.
> Cross Bow: 1UR when used one-handed
I assume you mean +1UR? That's a good idea.
> Short Bow: 6" range
> Long Bow: 12" range, 1d6 damage, 1CP, 1UR, TL2
> LBows would need to be distinguished from SBows. Add a piece, like
> rifles.
I'd make Longbows 2CP, since they are a lot closer to crossbows in value than
shortbows. But I still haven't thought of a good way to distinguish them.
Which TL did longbows first show up in? When was that famous battle of St.
Crispian's Day?
I think you're right about boosting the Short Bow's range also, it should
probably be on par with the Pirate Flintlock Pistol at least. I'll probably
end up revising the TL3 pistols and rifles a little bit too to even it out.
> On a seperate note, but related, I can't find the rules for
> acceleration. I see references to them. I see a way to ignore them.
> I can't find the actual rules. Is this a subtle way to suggest they
> should be ignored? <voice style="pitiful, squeaky"> help </voice>.
Well that was left as an exercise for the student. The maximum acceleration
and deceleration per turn are listed with the vehicle chassis cost; whether
and how you keep track of them is up to you.
Just kidding, I'll make it a little more clear in the HTML rulebook.
Basically, if your vehicle has a maximum speed (for instance) of 10" and a
maximum accel/decel of 5", from a standing start, it can go five inches on its
first turn, ten inches on its second turn, slow back down to five inches on
its third turn, and stop completely on its fourth turn.
> I also have some thoughts on spears and lances. But I need to work
> those out in my head.
I'll be glad to hear them of course. Thanks for all the input!
- Mike Rayhawk.
--------------------------------------------------
Check out the Official BrikWars Home Page at
http://www.teleport.com/~rayhawks/brikwars.htm
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mjr22@cornell.edu (Mike Rayhawk) wrote in <FsvJCv.A5t@lugnet.com>:
> Longbow and a Shortbow. The bow piece is not real easy to modify;
> the best you can do is hook a claw piece on the handle to make it
> look like a combination bow.
I was thinking to just hang something off of the bow, somewhere. The
other thing I might do, is use color. I'm pretty sure I have a good
number of both black and brown bows. Or, I could only field LBows.
> > Cross Bow: 1UR when used one-handed
> I assume you mean +1UR? That's a good idea.
Yep. During my revisions of the post, I discovered UR and rewrote
that bit. After posting I discovered that the CBow already had a >0
UR.
> I'd make Longbows 2CP, since they are a lot closer to crossbows in
> value than shortbows.
I originally intended to cost this at 2CP. When I did the mod's
math, it was only 1CP. Than I thought about it some more and decided
that a LBow is really not much more expensive to make than a SBow.
BTW, the UR for a CBow should be substantially lower than a LBow.
<Hmm. Scurry over to MS Word.> 3 vs. 5. Look good. This seems
right. At TL1, you only have SBow. At (later) TL2, CBow and LBow
become common. A Cbow is expensive, but easy to use. A LBow is cheap
and very effective, but difficult.
In comparing to firearms. A revolver is fairly simple to use. Maybe
lower the UR on pirate-pistol and revolver by one. This is consistent
with history. The value of firearms was not that they are more
effective than bows (modern small arms really don't have much on a good
bow, vs mid-size mammals), but that they are so much easier to use. In
a couple of days you can train any reasonably dextrous person to shoot
with deadly effectiveness. It takes months to get an archer to that
level. BTW, have you consider more stealth issues with weapons. A bow
is a lot easier to attack with without attracting attention.
> Which TL did longbows first show up in? When was
> that famous battle of St. Crispian's Day?
I think LBows date from 11-1400. Somewhere in there. They would fit
into late TL2, I think.
> I think you're right about boosting the Short Bow's range also, it
> should probably be on par with the Pirate Flintlock Pistol at least.
> I'll probably end up revising the TL3 pistols and rifles a little
> bit too to even it out.
I think the lower UR would be the best way to do this. It lowers the
cost of the weapon by lowering the cost of the soldier firing it.
Which is what happened when firearms became common.
> Well that was left as an exercise for the student. The maximum
> acceleration and deceleration per turn are listed with the vehicle
> chassis cost; whether and how you keep track of them is up to you.
Putting them into a column in the chart would make them easier to
spot. I never noticed them.
> Basically, if your vehicle has a maximum speed (for instance) of 10" • [...]
> its fourth turn.
Sounds right.
> I'll be glad to hear them of course. Thanks for all the input!
Mostly, I am thinking about the advantage of setting a lance or spear
against a charge. I think using the rules you have for damage when
charging would work. If I have time to set my spear, I may do damage
to the charger which is equivalent to the damage he'd do to me if he
had my weapon. Make sense?
One more thing. I'd love to see a cheat sheet. All of the charts
that are most used during battles on a few sheets. I've hacked
something up by making a copy of the rules and editting out everything
else. Actually, I'd like to see two of these. One with all of the
battle stats. Say, the weapon tables and abbreviated text for key
battle effects. Explosions, fire,...
And, a second sheet for army creation. All of the pre-defined units
in a chart form. One per line. Than a series of charts with the
basics for designing units. And, again, text for key items. Brief
description of costing buildings. Stuff like that.
One last thing I'd like (pushy, isn't he?). Which may exist in the
'98 rules, I haven't really read them. A tutorial sort of thing.
Either walk me through building a small army, deploying it, and playing
a turn or two. Or alternately, just list a couple of small armies and
battlefield, with stats, and pics, for everything. Maybe, we can work
up something to help with this from our battle Saturday.
BTW, (all BrikWars developers) very nice work thus far. Thanks a lot
for your effort.
Thanks,
Gino A...
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In lugnet.fun.gaming, Gino A. Melone writes:
> I was thinking to just hang something off of the bow, somewhere. The
> other thing I might do, is use color. I'm pretty sure I have a good
> number of both black and brown bows. Or, I could only field LBows.
These are all good ideas. I think we might actually add a TL4 combination
bow, in case anybody wants to field Rambo or some TL4 Ninjas or something.
> > I'd make Longbows 2CP, since they are a lot closer to crossbows in
> > value than shortbows.
> I originally intended to cost this at 2CP. When I did the mod's
> math, it was only 1CP. Than I thought about it some more and decided
> that a LBow is really not much more expensive to make than a SBow.
CP values aren't really supposed to reflect expense of building, but general
battlefield value. But if you want to talk about cost of construction, it
takes a lot longer to train a longbowman than a shortbowman, due to the upper-
body strength needed and accuracy at longer ranges.
> BTW, the UR for a CBow should be substantially lower than a LBow.
I've copied all of this over into the revision plan and we'll probably make a
lot of these changes for the next update.
> > Well that was left as an exercise for the student. The maximum
> > acceleration and deceleration per turn are listed with the vehicle
> > chassis cost; whether and how you keep track of them is up to you.
> Putting them into a column in the chart would make them easier to
> spot. I never noticed them.
We're going to be making some small changes to the accel/decel rules, so that
Movement Penalties from cargo and mounted weapons affect acceleration.
Acceleration will have to be something you calculate from the vehicle's Move
and -MP", so I don't know if we'll be able to put static figures in the
charts. Accel/Decel will get its own chapter subsection though so it should
be more visible.
> Mostly, I am thinking about the advantage of setting a lance or spear
> against a charge. I think using the rules you have for damage when
> charging would work. If I have time to set my spear, I may do damage
> to the charger which is equivalent to the damage he'd do to me if he
> had my weapon. Make sense?
Straight out of Braveheart, right? Yeah, that's the way I would do it. The
only question is whether the charging units would get a roll to try and
dodge. I guess the rider would make a Piloting roll with a UR of 3 to try and
brake or turn sharply, failure meaning he runs straight into the spear or his
horse turns too sharply and falls over sideways onto the spear.
> One more thing. I'd love to see a cheat sheet. All of the charts
> One last thing I'd like (pushy, isn't he?). Which may exist in the
> '98 rules, I haven't really read them. A tutorial sort of thing.
What's funny is, all the cheat sheets exist in bw98, and we're planning on
doing the same thing for bw2k, but this tutorial thing we hadn't thought of.
It's a great idea though, I'll see if I can't put one together to stick in one
of the appendixes somewhere, sometime in May.
- Mike Rayhawk.
--------------------------------------------------
Check out the Official BrikWars Home Page at
http://www.teleport.com/~rayhawks/brikwars.htm
--------------------------------------------------
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mjr22@cornell.edu (Mike Rayhawk) wrote in <Fsx159.Kq0@lugnet.com>:
> These are all good ideas. I think we might actually add a TL4
> combination bow, in case anybody wants to field Rambo or some TL4
> Ninjas or something.
I feel like I ought to offer some stats suggestions. but, I just
don't knwo that much about compound bows.
> CP values aren't really supposed to reflect expense of building, but
> general battlefield value. But if you want to talk about cost of
> construction, it takes a lot longer to train a longbowman than a
> shortbowman, due to the upper- body strength needed and accuracy at
> longer ranges.
Hmm. A higher UR seems more appropriate to me. But I'm not sure.
> I've copied all of this over into the revision plan and we'll
> probably make a lot of these changes for the next update.
Glad to help.
> be able to put static figures in the charts. Accel/Decel will get
> its own chapter subsection though so it should be more visible.
Cool.
[setting a spear vs a charge]
> Straight out of Braveheart, right?
Don't know. Never seen the whole movie. More from SCA and similar
fighting, RPGs and fiction novels set in the time period.
It was a common practice against horsemen and when hunting. A
sufficiently brave hunter could take down a stag or boar like this
single-handedly. However, if you miss, you're dead.
> it. The only question is whether the charging units would get a
> roll to try and dodge. I guess the rider would make a Piloting roll
> with a UR of 3 to try and brake or turn sharply, failure meaning he
> runs straight into the spear or his horse turns too sharply and
> falls over sideways onto the spear.
Maybe just a modifier to the armor roll. Probably should account for
the steeds dexterity and the riders skill.
> What's funny is, all the cheat sheets exist in bw98, and we're
> planning on doing the same thing for bw2k,
See. That's what I get for upgrading too quickly. :-)
> but this tutorial thing
> we hadn't thought of. It's a great idea though, I'll see if I can't
> put one together to stick in one of the appendixes somewhere,
> sometime in May.
Great. I'll try to provide some info from our battle, if you'd like.
At least, I should be able to provide some pics of a TL3 force and the
stats for them.
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...OOOH! Since we are talking bows and stuff. The rules say that you have to buy a *bow
and a quiver to be able to fire them. I think that one round/arrow/bolt/whatever should be
included in the cost of the *bow. This would allow the fig to fire one shot then drop the
*bow and draw a sword or other second weapon. Useful in arena or narrow fields where you
likely will only get one shot off anyway. (we used to do this in arena fights with gurps)
...you can go back to ignoring me now...
wubwub
stephen f roberts
wamalug guy (http://wamalug.org)
wildlink.com
lugnet #160
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