Subject:
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Re: Theistic Evolution (was Re: Science and Beliefs)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:02:30 GMT
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Viewed:
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653 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Ryan Farrington writes:
> James Simpson:
> > > Now the aspect of Theistic Evolution (the idea that God used evolution to
> > > create) does not make that "variation" of the Bible's teaching a new
> > > religion, but it has the potential to undermine principal doctrines,
> > > specifically that of salvation.
> >
> > Why?
>
> James,
> If God used evolution to create (and an integral part of evolution is
> struggle and death) then God created by using death.
Struggle and death has indeed always been present. Let's for a moment assume
that the literal interpretation is true. God created man on the 6th day. He
created all of the other animals prior to that. I don't know if you're going to
deny the fossil record, but it is clear that carniverous survival has been
present for eons, and in fact, long before "Adam" or the human species appeared.
Suffering and death have been present on Planet Earth since life began. Once we
recognize that suffering and death has been an omnipresent influence we must
recognize that this world was never created as the best possible world.
Creation is a good thing. But by creating, God was not therefore obliged to
create the best thing. No doubt a better world is to come, but lets squarely
face the facts of this one.
> In Romans 5:12, God
> said that death entered the world as a result of sin.
That must be taken as a metaphor for spiritual death. Death was a fact of life
long before Homo Sapiens. Creatures tore each other's flesh. Again, I don't
know how you interpret the fossil record, but if you hold a literal
interpretation of Genesis, then I don't think that pre-human death need offend
you. Genesis says that Lucifer fell like a bolt of lightning to Earth. Isn't it
possible, from a literal interpretation of events, that creation, even before
the appearance of humanity, was stained by the rebellion and presence of the
evil one on Earth?
> Did God create sin so
> that he could "creatively evolve" everything? If so, then God is a sinner
> and He is the Devil.
Come again? God did not create sin. He created sentient beings that have a
capacity to act autonomously, and thus are capable of sinning. God created a
universe that accomodates disobedience.
But of course that can't be true. So if sin somehow
> was in the world, God could not have considered His creation "good" (Genesis
> 1:3, 10, 12, 18, 21, 25, *31*).
Why not? The Bible doesn't say that God considered His creation "perfect."
Again, it does not follow that God was/is obliged to create the best just
because He is capable of it. For all of this world's problems, I still consider
it "good." God said that its good, and it is.
Also, sin would be an inherent part of
> creation that God would not have to save us from.
Again, suffering and death is an inherent part of this creation because God saw
fit to create a world in which organisms are interdependent on one another for
their survival. Anyway, suffering and death is omnipresent, but I still enjoy
being saved from it whenever possible.
If He did have to save
> us, then that would seem like God couldn't do a good enough job in creation
> to do it without sin and death.
Why make such an assumption? He created a "good" world. If you believe Him to
be omnipotent, then it is/was well within his power to create the best possible
world that can be created.
>
> You said, "I don't take a literal view of Adam and Eve, for example; I see
> it as a metaphor for our (ancient) human rebellion." At what point in time
> do you believe this human rebellion came about?
When did Man gain sufficient intelligence to interact with his fellows and with
God? When did God first approach humanity? I doubt that it was at one place
and at one time. God has revealed himself. That is sufficient.
> And if Adam was a metaphor,
> he could not bring forth children, and then the genealogies of Jesus in
> Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38, which trace Mary and Joseph down to Abraham
> and then to Adam, imply that Jesus is also not a literal historical figure
> who did not literally die for us.
Bringing forth children? Humanity multiplied. My faith in the historical
veracity of Jesus is not contingent upon the supposed accuracy of his recorded
lineage. Jesus was the incarnate God, born of the virgin Mary, who was
crucified, buried, and rose again. Mary and Joseph were indeed decended from
"Adam;" they share common lineage in the genetic tree that links all humans.
> And keep in mind that it is because Adam
> (or man) sinned that sin and death came into the world (Romans 5:12), and
> not the other way around.
Agreed. Only sentient beings are capable of disobedience (wrongdoing - sin)
because they have sufficient intelligence to understand, to a high degree, the
causal ramifications of their actions. We don't hold a lion morally culpable
for the death of its prey. God has created us (and obviously i believe that it
was by means of evolution) as creatures who are endowed- blessed - with the
intelligence and wherewithall to live and approach creation on a higher plane;
to indeed interact with God. I'd never suggest that God sinned - indeed He
cannot; but He did create a world in which it is possible.
james
>
> --Ryan
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