Subject:
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Re: Nature of man (was Re: Problems with Christianity)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:22:12 GMT
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Viewed:
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746 times
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Dave Low <stinglessbee@hotSPAMFREEmail.com> wrote in message
news:G80HMz.7vD@lugnet.com...
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> > > > But according to others in this group, man doesn't HAVE free will - God • knows
> > > > everything anyone will do from cradle to grave - where is the free will • in
> > > > that?
> > >
> > > Well, I can't speak for others, but here is one take on it. (and I • haven't
> > > thought this through overly much, so it may have holes...)
> > >
> > > I don't see a contradiction.
> > >
> > > If I choose to (X), or to not (X), how does God knowing ahead of time • which
> > > I will choose affect my making the choice? The position that God's
> > > knowledge of my choice will affect my choice implies that God is • dictating
> > > my choice to me ahead of time, which, AFAIK, isn't happening.
> >
> > Right, but Tom isn't just saying that God decides in advance which way • we'll
> > turn out; Tom is asserting, I believe, that in order for the outcome of • an
> > event to be known in advance with absolute certainty, that event must be
> > pre-set in some way, and therefore freewill is an illusion. I'm not • talking
> > about knowing a range of probable outcomes, but rather the unquestionable
> > certainty that God would have. Again, I'm not saying that God is • choosing my
> > future course for me, but in order for that future course to be • absolutely
> > known now, it must already be set, so my free will is irrelevant.
>
> Can God actually be limited to our subjective experience? Assuming that • our path
> is unique in the near infinity of possible universes, all of which God
> understands totally, is it actually possible for God to comprehend how • linear
> this consciousness is? Beyond time and space all events are simultaneous • and
> eternal, unique and universal. If God sees everything in our history and • in
> every possible history as one moment, is anything really determined? • Perhaps we
> can have free will for ourselves, and at the same time know that God • doesn't see
> us making any choices.
I think you are misusing the 'time and space' concept when you characterize
the ability to 'go beyond' it. An array of greater than four dimensions,
which is what you are talking about, necessarily encompasses the lower
dimensions. Adding more dimensions does not remove relationships between
points/events, allowing someone to go 'beyond' them--it actually adds even
more relationships. An omniscient god able to perceive more dimensions at
once does not escape from 'linear' thought or 'linear' time, it takes upon
itself the vastly larger set of superlinear relationships embodied by
greater numbers of dimensions. That is, all 'events' (or points) remain
ordered in relation to one another no matter how many dimensions you want to
play with.
If the universe has real structure, with events (or points) lawfully
relating to one another (however that may be), those relationships are
necessarily expressable as equations. An omniscient god can solve those
equations anypoint (number of dimensions is irrelevant), resulting in a
deterministic universe. If there are no such relationships, the result is
chaos. In a truely chaotic universe (with truely simultaneous and unique
events/points/whatever), the concept of 'decision' is vacuous--free will
flies out the window (again). A combination of law sometimes and chaos
sometimes does not work either, since any decision point comes down to a
truely random roll of the dice or the resolution of an equation.
If god is not omniscient, indicating that the combination of laws
(equations) and chaos (randomness) embodied by the universe is too difficult
to solve at anypoint (number of dimensions is irrelevant), a sort of free
will does exist. It isn't the warm, fuzzy free will most people want to
believe they have, but it is better than what your computer has (for now).
The only other solution I can perceive would require some *other* knowledge
system. However, I have no reason to believe such a system exists (zero
evidence), just as I have no reason to believe that intelligent minifigs
exist. (If you can come up with a truely new knowledge system, publish it
and get your name in the history books!)
> I don't know if this makes sense to anyone else, but it does show me why • the
> idea of Christ is amazing. How you understand that idea is up to you of • course.
>
> --DaveL
This last paragraph is the only one that did not make sense to me. :)
-Doug
--
^V^^V^
I am: Damraska@Excite.com
Minifig Suns: http://pages.prodigy.net/damraska/
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