Subject:
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Re: Abortion, consistent with the LP stance? (Re: From Harry Browne
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 14 Nov 2000 00:35:52 GMT
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Viewed:
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763 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tim Courtney writes:
> "Selçuk Göre" <ssgore@superonline.com> wrote in message
> news:3A0FF811.1D604FE@superonline.com...
>
> > So, knowing that there is no 100% sure method other than vastectomy
> > (sp?) or its equivalent for women, then either lay down on operation
> > table, or "if you don't want to have child, do not make sex ever" right?
> > sorry Tim but: Hehehehehehehehe.
>
> There are known methods of having sex and not having it result in pregnancy
> which can be used. If you don't want to have a child, I would say don't
> allow conception to take place - but under no circumstances kill the child
> to get out of it.
As I said in my first pharagraph, there is no methods with 100% relaibility,
even when used in combination. Other than some surgical operations of course.
So if you don't want to be cut, there is always a possibility to have a babe as
a result of sex. So, there is only two ways to go (with your reasoning, I mean
taking the responsibility of your actions way): Either don't make sex ever
(since there is a possibility of being pregnant) or try to sit a baby that you
don't want/can't afford/etc. Me and my wife do anything that we can since we
don't want a babe right now (we don't feel that we have the budget to sit
him/her properly) and since I don't want my wife go for abortion (nothing but
for her own health) and we have been sucessful since the very beginning of our
relation (more than 6 years) but if something bad would happen, and if my wife
still wouldn't want a babe, it will be again her own decision and I don't have
any problem with that.
> > I don't see anyone who can decide this instead of us, the two of us, me
> > and my wife, (actually much more my wife). It is not the business of
> > anybody but us.
> That's true - having sex and deciding whether or not to have children is up
> to you and your wife, no one else.
Sorry about my English but I meant "abortion" here, not "having sex and having
child after"..:-) (actually I have a feeling that its not my English, but
anyway) Actually this is the whole point. Neither government, nor any other
personality could have a single word about this very personal thing, I mean
abortion. For the first 35 days, abortion is not a risky thing for my wife,
that is the all I care. I said 35 days, because it is the the period of which
at the end you go to your doctor since you will start to think about "if.." And
at the end of this period, the thing is only a 6mm thing at most, that I really
can't relate it with a human being.
> > Embryo is nothing but a group of cells till a certain
> > time is reached, which is also the safe period for the thing, and it
> > will be my wife's decision to do it or not. And yes, it is certainly my
> > wife's body, including the thing called embryo.
>
> While it is inside your wife's body, it does have its own unique genetic
> code and by some definition I would believe it to be a separate being.
The parazites in our body have their own unique generic code, and are also
separate beings..:-) By the way, how about cloning? they would have the same
(not own unique) genetic code with their mother, AFAIK..:-)
Every living thing has a right to continue its life, but my wife has a right to
decide whether she want it in her own body or not, which I respect more than
the "living right" of the thing that we are talking about.
> > Abortion is a legal
> > thing in Turkey, and I don't care if it will be illegal in some date. I
> > don't have any problem with being illegal for the things that are
> > absolutely personal. Period.
>
> Here's another question, and one which is walking a fine line for me. Is
> how you discipline your child only your business? For example, what if (and
> this has been known to happen) a parent puts their child in a cage as
> discipline, or in a dark room for long periods of time. Or abusively beats
> them? Is that the parents' own personal business, or should someone step
> in?
>
> How different is that from ending the life of a child? If the child has
> been outside the womb for a half of a second and is killed, its a murder
> charge. In the US, if a drunk driver hits a car with a pregnant woman and
> both the woman and the unborn child die, its a double homicide.
Sorry but I can't see any similarity between the above cases and abortion. By
the way, I whish we had the same type of traffic penalties in our country..:-(
> If I'm not mistaken (and I very well could be) abortion methods traumatize
> the unborn child inside... they actually experience pain. How different is
> that from punishing your child severely or abusing them? And moreso, the
> end result is death!!
Very different. First we should made clear if the thing is a human being or
just a living thing. The second choice does not bother me much, because there
are alot of living things around suffers from our (human beings) existence.
> I'm saying that the fetus is a human life, and from a human rights
> standpoint we have the responsibility to preserve life to the best of our
> ability. How much more so would you preserve the life of someone of your
> own blood than that of a complete stranger?? The child within the womb is
> definitely that of both partners' blood.
You are saying that, but I'm not saying it. I don't have a love affair to every
single cell of my body. All I say is this is a personal thing. Maybe you
already noted, but I'm using "me" and "my wife" throughout the message. If you
believe so, act like that. But never and never say things like "this is a
murder and government should take care of it". It is not murder if the thing
is not a human being, and I can't see anything other than "feelings" that
proves otherwise up to date.
> The only way I would consider an abortion as an option would be if my wife
> (I am not married, but when I get married) could die in the pregnancy. It
> would be a decision carefully weighed by both of us and our doctor. In the
> case of rape, my advice would be to take the 'morning after' pill whether
> the victim knows they're pregnant or not.
Again it is your choice but, I just can't see how you can rationalize this
"morning after pill" thing, with the your stance against abortion. If you think
that abortion is "murder", how can you think that you have right to "kill" this
innocent being, only since it is a product of rape? What is the relation
between this innocent fetus and its mother being raped? As in your reasoning
and examples above, till what age "killing" a child is not a "murder" if the
child is a product of rape?
> I still stand against abortion as a whole, with only considering the special
> situations of rape or death during childbirth as options for having one. A
> life is a life, no matter what stage it is in.
Again, act as you believe, but just don't call the cavalry to bring justice to
us, "murderers"..:-)
Actually I just can't get the popularity of this abortion debate with US
people. Turkey is a rather religious country with 95% of its population
believing Islam, which is a more strict religion than yours, and even there is
a considerable amount of people also believing that birth control is against
the god's will, there is no debate about legality of abortion. I always tend to
see that US people is maybe the most individualist around the world (and it is
a good thing I believe) and it really amazes me seeing that you want
govermental control on abortion. Even libertarians don't have a real stance
about it. Really amazing...:-)
Selçuk
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