Subject:
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Re: Responsible Hunting (was Re: We are what we eat. Or is that "whom we eat?")
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 31 Jul 2000 15:59:05 GMT
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Viewed:
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2487 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Christopher L. Weeks writes:
> > > Can it choose not to be prey?
> >
> > I think deer (like everything) choose this as often as possible.
>
> I disagree. They are prey regardless of what they choose, but sometimes they
> are eaten and sometimes they are not.
But it would seem then that you remove meaning from the term 'prey.' By what I
think you're saying, all organisms are prey. If so, what point is there in
using the term?
> > we can assume deer don't want
> > to be hungry since they continue to eat)
>
> But is it a "want"? Their hearts keep beating, but not because they want
> them to.
I think that eating in response to hunger is very different than your heart
beating as a function of the type of entity that you are. Would you claim that
deer have no choice about eating? If so, doesn't that mean that deer eat
always under some set of conditions (stomach empty to a certain degree, etc.)?
I suspect that I could contrive of and create a situation in which that's not
true.
> > > Mostly all they'll do is try to live as long as possible and procreate. • That
> > > purpose -- being good enough for them -- is good enough for me.
> > >
> > > Deer do not "want" either of these things;
> >
> > Demonstrate that to me.
>
> Ignoring for the moment that there is no way to demonstrate anything
> conclusive about an animal's "thoughts," I would suggest that because the deer
> cannot do anything to stop their drives to live and to procreate, these drives
> are distinct from "wants."
>
> > WRT procreation, I find it hard to believe that the males want that. I
> > suspect they just want to feel good during copulation, and so they do.
>
> Or, to look at it another way, the accumulation of testosterone and the
> response to estrus urges them to copulate, and so they do, regardless of
> their "wants."
What about if they don't always when they've accumulated testosterone and
responsive to estrus? What decides how they respond to multiple
conflicting drives?
> In this light they do not choose to copulate; they are driven to it.
Do you think that this is different with humans?
> > And I doubt that females associate copulation with mothering, but it strikes
> > me as quite possible that mother deer remember from year to year being a
> > mother fondly (for lack of a less human word).
>
> This is wholly conjectural and therefore not of particular value for this
> debate. Even assuming that the doe remembers motherhood fondly, that's not
> the same as "wanting to procreate" or even "wanting to be a mother."
I see that fond remembrance is different than desire. But the two often
coincide. If I remember how good my bowl of cereal was yesterday, I'm likely
to _want_ another one for breakfast today. Why do you assume that's different
for deer?
> You're asserting that the doe associates procreation with motherhood,
> or you're at least asserting that the doe connects fond memories with
> wanting to be a mother.
I am specifically not asserting the first thing when I wrote "I doubt that
females associate copulation with mothering." The second does seem like a
logical conclusion; fond remembrance -- barring intervening variables -- leads
to desire.
> I don't see any way to draw this conclusion other than by a great
> deal of speculation and presumption of the animal's drives.
Some speculation to be sure, but I think to assume the opposite requires the
same. It doesn't seem that assuming the deer are almost completely robotic in
their response is any less conjectural.
If you are asserting that all organisms are complex biochemical robots that do
everything as a predictable result of stimuli, I can appreciate that, but you
do seem to be segregating humans out of that loop.
> > WRT to longevity, I am comfortable with my stance that they do want it. They
> > avoid danger, they eat, etc. They may not consider living a long and happy
> > life with a rocker on the porch and great-grand-fawns all around, but I think
> > that they want to live rather than die.
>
> I would assert that they are driven to live rather than die. It's a fine
> point of contention, but a significant one, and I'll stand by it.
What is the cognitive requirement for desire instead of drive? Is it just a
firmer grasp on the future than you believe deer have? Do you believe that
'want' exists at all, or just not in deer?
> > > they do them out of hard-wirded genetic programming.
> >
> > Like humans?
>
> I made a similar assertion in another post, and you rejected it as SciFi.
Not exactly, but I may have misunderstood. Please clarify your thoughts on
this as related to free will in humans and other organisms and I'll go from
there.
> > > The notion of choice, in anything other than an avoidance or embrace of
> > > stimuli, seems to me little more than anthropomorphizing animals with a type
> > > of programming fundamentally (and inescapably) different from that of • humans.
> >
> > I disagree. I think that it is a difference of degree, not kind.
>
> This is interesting to me, since you're asserting the same things about
> animals that I recently asserted about plants, for the same reason, and (to
> the opposing view) for similarly arbitrary reasons.
I can't put this all together. You asserted that plants are sensory organisms,
and my response was that they're just reacting biochemically. Is that what you
mean?
I guess I do see what you mean. I'm asserting that there is something that
magically different about organisms with a CNS and you're asserting that that
magic only happens when you get to the level of humans (for whatever reason).
Right?
Sorry if I'm missing something simple. (It kind of feels like it.)
Chris
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