Subject:
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Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 5 Mar 2000 04:13:17 GMT
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Viewed:
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1204 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Peter Callaway writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dan Boger writes:
> The plight of the Israelites throughout the Old Testament is proof that he
> cared about them. He constantly refers to them as his "Chosen People". The
> fact that he sent Jesus to earth to do what He did is even more proof.
Again, you're assuming that events described in the bible are exactly as
described, and were written down objectivly. The bible, however, was written
by people who did believe in a God that led then through the desert etc, etc,
etc. That makes it really hard for to take it as an historical reference and
not a religious document.
>
> I'm not talking warm fuzzy feelings every time I think that God cares, just
> like I don't always feel warm fuzzies when I think of how much my wife cares
> about me. The fact is she does, and the fact is that God does, whether we
> "feel" it or not.
So I'm supposed to take it on your word then? Or somehow the "knowing" the God
exists and that God cares will be injected into my mind...
> Again, what are you looking for? What do you want to see? An end to world
> hunger? No more death and destruction? Sorry, but God doesn't work that way.
> He gave us free will, and the bad stuff that goes on in this world is just a
> result of mankind using that free will. A New Testament example is the parable
> of the Prodigal Son. An Old Testament example is the Israelites worshipping
> Ba'al whilst Moses was away getting the 10 Commandments (I love the irony of
> this one. God has just lead them out of years of slavery to the Egyptians, and
> the first thing they do when they get a chance is worship another god!).
perhaps, just wondering aloud here, they didn't believe that God is the one who
saved them, but Moses did? And so worshipping Ba'al was not a problem, since
Moses was not a god.
> If you want God to step in and put an end to all this bad stuff, then everyone
> has to want it to end. Can you see that happenning?
No, I don't trust in a God to stop all the world suffering, I hope that
mankind will figure it out, otherwise it will exterminate itself.
[snip]
> > first of all, I did read all through the old testament and never once saw a
> > mention of Jesus :)
>
> That's because he hadn't been born then. But the Old Testament (as you know)
> is full of prophesies about the coming of the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled these
> prophesies in every way. The Jews find it impossible to believe that Jesus is
> the one they're waiting for because they were expecting a warrior saviour who
> was exclusive to them. Jesus is for everyone, not just the Jews.
I don't know if Jesus fulfilled the prophesies, but my guess is that jews
rejected him cause he rejected a lot of Judaism? Didn't he say you don't need
to follow the Mit'zvot and basicly can do whatever you want as long as you
confess? Or that you're automaticly forgiven for your sins? (sorry if my lack
of knowledge in christianity is showing... I'm asking my wife cause she's
protestant but she doesn't really know either ;)
> > But all the references you mentioned are for the god _you_ believe in...
> > I've read in the old testament God being refered to as both male and female -
> > I don't know the names of the books in english, so I'll just transliterate:
> > in "Tehilim" (praise?), 54:1 it says: "He'ezina elohim tefilati ve'al
> > titalem me'trhinati" - "God listened (female form) to my prair and did not
> > ignore (female form) my plea. And it goes on in the rest of the chapeter all
> > the time refereing to God as a female. There's more references like this out
> > there, I just opened randomly and found the first I ran into.
>
> This is Psalm 54 in my Bible, written by David. Could you do me a favour and
> translate the whole Psalm for me. I'd like to see your interpretation of verse
> 7.
hmm, that was just the first one that I happened to find... let me look it up
again. (I should warn all that reading biblical hebrew is not easy even though
hebrew is my first language - so I'll try to make sense anyway). errr... I
looked again, and the verse I quoted was 55:2 and not 54:1 (sorry) - which one
did you want me to read? 55:7? "And I said who'll give me the wings of a dove
, I'll fly and dwell in her" (very loose, hard to translate, and it sounds a
lot better in hebrew).
> I'll have to get back to you on this one, because I don't have a copy of the
> original Hebrew text, and I'll have to consult a couple of scholars I know on
> this one.
>
> > I can't be sure with bible you read, but the fact that it was written by
> > however many people, who all believed the same thing, doesn't make it right,
> > you know. I like thinking for myself... Which is probably why I have such a
> > hard time with taking things on faith.
>
> But you DO have faith in your own ability to judge right from wrong. Fair
> enough, we all do. But does that make us right 100% of the time? That's why we
> need to seek "3rd-party" clarification.
First of all, I don't really know right from wrong, which is why I ask my wife
:) But seriously, nothing _makes_ us right ever - we just try our best... And
when we have doubts, we do go to a 3rd party, which is society. Some people
will go to their minister, I will go to a Judge. Neither is more right than
the other, and both are just men using their experience to help you.
> The reason that the bible is a valid document is not merely due to the fact
> that all the people who wrote it believed the same thing. It is totally
> incredible that a such a great variety of people (including Kings Solomon and
> David) from such a wide time-span had personal and unique experiences of the
> same God.
What I think is incredible is that Religion managed to survive all through the
years. But I guess that there were times were you were not allowed not to
believe, and religion really does give a lot of support, makes it easier, for
those who need it.
> > First of all, if I were a religious person, I wouldn't believe in Jesus cause
> > I don't know what my religioun says about him, but it defenitly doesn't agree
> > he was the King of the Jews, since he was not decended from David.
>
> Hang on, you just said you liked to think for yourself. Now you're telling me
> that you wouldn't believe in him because your religion tells you not to.
Actually, I said that "IF I was a religious person..." - but I'm not.
> The lineage of Jesus is fact. Read Matthew 1:1-17. If you don't believe the
> New Testament I can try to source other references for you. He is descended
> from David, which fulfills one of the prophesies of 2 Samuel 7:8-17 (note the
> reference to "I will be his father and he will be my son" - more masculine
> references), 1 Chronicles17:7-15 and Psalm 132:11-12 (just a selection).
well, the actual prophesie says "I will be to him as a father, and he will be
to me as a son" - close, but not quite right... I never said that the bible
didn't refer to God as male, I just said that it ALSO refered to Her as female.
> Just a thought. There are two possibilities for Jesus' birth. The first is
> that he was an immaculate conception, in which case this argument is moot
> because he would be the Son of God. The second is that he was conceived
> through Joseph, in which case he is still a direct decendent of David, as
> proved in Matthew 1:1-17. Either way, he has the right to claim King of the
> Jews.
Well, if he's the son of god, that actually breaks the profecy, doesn't it?
Also, (as my wife pointed out), the messiah was supposed to arrive riding a
white donkey through the 8th gate in Jerusalem. That has never happened
either.
> > All my life I was never tought about the new testament, since Judaism (sp)
> > doesn't believe in it... But since I'm not a religious person, that's not my
> > problem.
>
> We both agree that just because you believe something doesn't make it right.
> Gravity isn't my problem until I want to jump off a cliff because I don't
> believe it exists. You've already stated that you believe there is something
> there. Logic would dictate further investigation to determine what "it" is.
no no no - I believe there's aliens out there (I do! But that's a whole new
bag of worms ;) but my thoughts is that if there is a supreme being, a creator
if you will, it doesn't care about the little ants on earth any more than you
care about the germs on the food you throw away.
> > The fact the some books some people wrote says Jesus did this and said that,
> > is not nearly enough for me to believe that that's what happend. I would • just
> > as easily believe in all the urban ledgends that people keep repeating to • each
> > other.
>
> So what do you believe? Do you believe the events of the American Civil War?
> Some people wrote some books on that. Do you believe that Gaius Julius Caesar
> was emperor of Rome until he was killed by Marcus Junius Brutus in March 44
> BC? Some people wrote some books about that too. I could go on. History is
> written down for us to remember how it happened. To discredit it because "it
> was written a long time ago" is just sticking your head in the sand. Granted
> some accounts contradict others, in which case you have to go on the best and
> most consistent evidence. The fact that all accounts of Jesus' life are
> largely consistent (particularly on the fundamentally important bits) is more
> than good enough for me.
>
> The reason this occurs is because the "some people" who wrote the gospels, for
> example, were actual eyewitnesses to Jesus' life. They spent time with him on
> a daily basis over a number of years. This is certainly not "urban legend".
> Their accounts are similar to you writing a diary about the life of your best
> friend - far be it for me to discredit that!
the difference between history and religious documents, is that historians are
supposed to be objective, and people who write bibles, are not, nor do they
claim to be.
:)
Dan
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: Does God have a monopoly on gods?
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| (...) The plight of the Israelites throughout the Old Testament is proof that he cared about them. He constantly refers to them as his "Chosen People". The fact that he sent Jesus to earth to do what He did is even more proof. I'm not talking warm (...) (25 years ago, 5-Mar-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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