Subject:
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Re: Goodness of Man? (was: Re: Merry Christmas from the Libertarian Party
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 3 Jan 2000 00:35:46 GMT
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1598 times
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Jasper Janssen wrote in message <3899b16b.962273428@lugnet.com>...
> On Sat, 1 Jan 2000 21:09:41 GMT, John Neal <johnneal@uswest.net>
> wrote:
> > Jasper Janssen wrote:
> Oh, I don't really care about how easy it is. I have my own morality,
Don't we all.
> And because, like I said, there's no useful definition, it's useless
> to argue about it.
Wrong. You can learn from arguing, I have.
> The problem is, we _know_ the Bible is inaccurate (simple logic
> dictates it - even forgetting about the OT, the various apostles write
> quite differing accounts of Jesus' life. Even discounting Paul, there
> are discrepancies in fairly major details). If the Bible is not
> accurate in detail, it is obviously not the word of god.
I am not a Bible-beater, I am not a Christian, but the Bible was written
by men for men. There is much good in the Bible. I can't take any of it as
fact, and don't push it on other people. Still, you can learn from the
Bible, too, I have.
> My major assumption is that I assume that god would intervene in a way
> that is fairly undeniable, but more importantly, not disprovable. Like
> the Stone Tablets. Or the mormons' Golden Book. etc.
Jasper, I reiterate something I wrote in another post - that I have no
expectations. I don't know whether the God (for lack of any better word)
will manifest itself as a person or some amazing event, if at all. I don't
worry about that. I don't need that as proof that it exists. I have
personal experiences, that have proven to me that a greater power does
exist. I feel very fortunate to have that certainty. I have had more than
one such experience, and for the first few, I was able to say, it was
nothing. But, in time, and everything takes time, I understand certain
truths. I don't want you to think that I am saying you are wrong for not
believing in God (or for believing in God, if you do). Thats not what I
mean to say at all. I would not try to tell you that you should believe it.
I would tell you should believe it only if that is what is right to you.
You don't have to believe because I do, or because the majority of your
countrymen do. I didn't believe for a very long time because the majority
of the people I saw in the world, seemed like fools, and all said different
things regarding the God, and I thought they were all so stupid to believe
such drivel. This is nowhere near as poetic as I'd like, but thats what I
have to say - thats your choice, your beliefs - don't let others dictate
them. I have had tons of influences, and took many moons to sort it all
out.
> I find the mormons' golden book story fairly unlikely. (I mean, come
> on - you dig into the earth just outside New York, find the Word of
> God inscribed in gold, then you copy it onto paper and destroy the
> original?)
Hmm, sounds fishy don't it? I don't buy it.
> The Moses story as well (after all, he spent enough time up on thjat
> mountain to chisel the things in himself.. if he wanted to, for
> example, get a new grip on his people).
I don't buy that either. I don't believe, if there is a God, that he
requires you to believe any of this stuff.
> As far as Jesus (who may or may not be the jewish Christ ;-) ) goes..
> Virgin birth? Raise people from the dead? Multiply bread and fish by
> supernatural means? Not bloody likely.
Actually virgin birth is not all that exceptional, according to some crap
I read somewhere. I think that was Catholic Schoolgirl propaganda against
unwed sex, but whether its true or not, I don't buy Jesus either.
> I'll grant that Jesus quite probably existed as a person. I'll even
> grant that he was a very special person, reaching new spiritual
> heights. But the literal son-of-god? I don't think so.
Do Jews have God-parents? I have a Godmother and a Godfather, and I am
their Godson. Perhaps King James henchmen mistranslated something?
> If anything, I suppose I'm more like a buddhist - I believe there may
> be a higher power (though he has never conclusively shown herself,
> nobody has, or can, disprove him). I don't think he is necessarily
> omnipotent, or perfect. I suppose that makes my stance "God is people
> too!".
I considered Buddhism for a while, more than most others. But then I
read too much (glad I did) about Buddha, and found contradictions again. I
don't buy it either. No offense. When it comes to what I believe, I don't
know that much. I like to keep it simple. I know there is something more
powerful than ourselves on a spiritual plane. Perhaps some people can
figure that out, but its not for me to question, wonder or waste time about.
I have been shown all the proof I suspect I will be given. If more comes
along, great. If and until then, I will devote my time to less dubious
pursuits. When I said spiritual plane, I meant something I can't see, and
can't fathom either. I, like Larry, like to think that I am the poster
child of humility. Of course I am not, but it does take a certain amount of
humility to say I don't understand these things, I can't fathom what is
going on, and I am incapable (now, if ever) of defining it. As a person, I
find it almost a necessity to be able to prove everything, and to comprehend
everything around me, but this thing I can't. This takes faith and humility
(and of course honesty) to accept that I am less than perfect, less than
omniscient (or even ever having that capability). Some would say faith and
humility are weaknesses, but I can merely say, as usual, "I disagree."
> > > But since there is no divine guidance, only the • ...no _clear_ divine...
> > > blind-leading-the-blind kind, what exactly are we supposed to do?
> >
> > As far as you know. Denying that God is present in your every thought is • based on no
> > proof (although claiming it is isn't, either) It's a classic issue of • faith. If the idea
> > of believing something that isn't provable is so unpalatable, I would why. • Is it because
> > you might be wrong, and look like a fool? There are worse things than • appearing to look
> > like a fool-- one that comes immediately to mind is living out an entire • life without
> > having a clue of meaningfulness or purpose.
>
> I personally would rather derive my purpose from helping my fellow man
> than from a higher being who may or may not exist and who has never
> given a clear sign either way how he would want me to live out my
> life.
I can understand this. How can you best help your fellow man, then? I
have helped people financially, but I have helped people in many other ways,
too. Not because I felt obligated to do so, but because I enjoy it. If you
want to feel love, then love. I don't see that as my purpose in living
though, but it is a big, gratifying part. I spend a lot of time with that
right now - many people have helped me, they have given me free goods, in
the terms of finances, time and knowledge. I feel that not only do I owe
those people (though they said I owe them nothing), but others who seek
help. I did not ask for or receive any charity from my government, I still
feel I owe it nothing, that I am being looted, despite my various hardships.
And so, one of the ways (that you get to see a lot, maybe too much) I can
help my fellow man, is to show them what I think is a better way. Most who
have had the patience to listen long enough have become more aligned with my
thinking. Maybe not completely, but I am finding people who understand me,
or actually work to understand me, while in the past I was nearly unable to
convince anybody of anything. I can't say that without a doubt that
anything or everything I say is correct (truth) but I do firmly believe the
things I say. I don't intend to litter this newsgroup with posts everyday,
but I have some free time right now. Also, in my selfishness, which hasn't
gone away as most say it should when you find the God, I am learning still
from the words you and others write. Its a mutual exchange of goods. I do
think it is good to help my fellow man, but at the same time, I need to help
myself, and let others help me. Pretty cool, n'est pas?
So, what can you do to help your fellow man, if you believe it is right
to help him? That is for you to decide, but I will tell you this, I already
think you are helping me. So thanks, Jasper and everyone else.
> I do so in small ways (I like to think providing a Dutch factor for
> Larry is helping my fellow man, as is providing promo .nl only or
> out-of-production lego sets at little to no profit[1]), I occasionally
> do so in big ways.
Probably more ways than that, judging your on line personality. Thanks
and keep it up!
> Jasper
>
> [1] incidentally, I've got three MIB 2140's lying around. Anyone
> interested? I've also seen a sealed Control Center II on the shelves
> locally, fairly shelf-worn otherwise mint-in-box.
That sounds tantalizing...
--
Have fun!
John
The Legos you've been dreaming of...
http://www114.pair.com/ig88/lego
my weird Lego site:
http://www114.pair.com/ig88/
"Censorship is yet another tool in the dumbing-down of America
by a power structure that relies on a populace too lazy or ignorant
to think independently." -Vanessa McGrady
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