Subject:
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Re: We'll take in your poor, your homeless, your oppressed...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 8 Jul 2004 19:41:27 GMT
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Viewed:
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951 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Bruce Schlickbernd wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Leonard Hoffman wrote:
> > > So, Germany could slaughter jews at whim in the 20th century because it was a
> > > sovereign nation and you fully support that?
> >
> > Not comparable. And I'm not talking about my support - but rather the legality
> > of international law.
>
> A dodge, but I'll go with the flow: then you believe that international law
> supports that any nation recognized by the U.N. is free to slaughter its
> inhabitants at will and no intervention is just?
"no intervention" - the UN has repeatedly placed economic sanctions on countries
for human rights abuses.
"slaughter" is a loaded term. A nation has a right to defend itself from
insurgents and rebels. A nation has a right to enforce its own laws, including
by execution.
But let me be clear - I do not support human rights abuses of any sort. However,
the *need* to invade a country must be very high before any country has the
right/justness to do so. *ALL* other options must be tried first.
> I'll lay it out to you the same way I did to David - you found the explosives,
> traced the wire back to McVey who just finished hooking up the cables to the
> detonator and is set to push the plunger. You have identified that you are
> armed and will shoot if he doesn't step away from the detonator immediately. He
> starts to push.
The issue is self defence. And like Scott said, I'd prefer a non fatal wound.
But I would kill because the situation is immeadiate.
Tying this back to Iraq - Iraq posed no immeadiate threat to the US, therefore
the attack was unwarranted and unjust.
> > I don't believe in vigilantes or vigilante style justice. The rule of law is
> > what keeps us civilized and not barbarians.
>
> So, if we pass a law to slaughter all people with Germanic names you are okay
> with that? I mean, it wouldn't be vigilante or anything like that. It would be
> a law - even passed by elected representatives.
The opposite of vigilantes is not unchecked mob rule. I don't see how the two
issues are even related. Vigilantes take the law into their own hands (wrong) -
Killing Germans Law is an abuse of elective power and unconstitutional (also
wrong).
If elected representatives passed such a law, I would do everything in my power
to fight it. Mainly because I have a Germanic name.
> You are still arguing that Saddam and his supporters can kill whomever they want
> and that there are no "just" scenarios for stopping him.
There are plenty of just scenarios for stopping Saddam. None of them include a
unilateral invasion of Iraq by the US.
> > I'm sure my confusion is the root of this. I think wisdom of doing an action
> > and the justness of said action are very closely connected. Indeed, most
> > "unwise" actions are immoral.
>
> So, if I am miles away from any aid, and a 300 pound weight lifter starts
> beating you to death, and I unwisely (and unsuccessfully) try to save your life,
> I've done something immoral? As I said, you are confusing wisdom with justness,
> and I've already said the war was stupid and unwise. I'll even say Bush's
> approach to the war is unjust, but removing Saddam inherently being unjust?
> Nonsense.
I did not say all unwise actions are necessarily immoral. Unwise does not equal
immoral. This is level one logic here. You're trying to reverse my statement
when clearly the reverse is not logical.
All men are mortal.
Socrates is a man.
Therefore Socrates is mortal. (valid)
Therefore any mortal man is Socrates. (reverse of the conclusion is invalid)
Furthermore, if you were being beaten by a 300 lb weight lifter - the only wise
choice for me (successful or not) is to try to save you.
It seems you're saying the attempt to save my life is unwise.
I hope we haven't gone that far down the dark path.. have we Bruce?
-Lenny
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