Subject:
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Re: Holy crap! (was Re: The partisian trap in California)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 28 Oct 2003 22:22:02 GMT
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Viewed:
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1031 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
> > For me, it comes down to whether I believe in an ultimate creator of the
> > universe. And I do.
> >
> > Does God exist? Yes.
>
> This suggests a question that may have been asked herepreviously, but I'd like
> to follow up on it once again:
>
> Accepting that you do believe that God exists, {why} do you believe that God
> exists?
>
> I've asked people this in non-LUGNET life, and the answers usually take one of
> XXX forms:
>
> 1. Because the bible/my parents/my pastor/a respected figure told me so.
>
> 2. Because only God can explain the mystery/complexity of the universe.
>
> 3. Because without God, life has no meaning.
>
> 4. Because without God, many evil people are never punished.
>
> 5. Because without God, then there is no heaven/afterlife
>
> 6. Because He revealed Himself to me in a way that I can't express to you.
>
> Each of these is, to me, an unsatisfactory justification for belief, and I'd be
> interested to hear other motivations.
>
> Dave!
Well, you won't like my answer then.
Being a pretty big fan of science, but only managing to fluff in trying to get a
BA, I consider myself a 'pseudo-sciece guy'. Which means I get the general
concepts, adn can see how things work and all, but getting into the intracacies
of things like quantum physics or pure mathematics just is completely beyond me.
Jack of much understanding--master of nada.
So here's the universe as we know it today, and, again, understanding bits and
pieces of history (but not really caring about trying to get 'all of history') I
think I have a pretty good overall pic as to how we're where we are today, with
regards to science and such.
But for me it comes down not to how the universe came to be--I mean science may
at some point in time bang down the 'how the big bang' happened--and there is
pretty good rational right now, and the willingness to delve into the problem
and rewrite the how at any time--that's one of the main reasons I love
science--tangent time
I mentioned before about the inert gasses and until 1967 scientists were
absolutely positive that those 'end of the periodic table' elements would not
actively react in a chemical reaction until some punk university student, not
willing to believe the line form the prof, made some inert gasses react. The
ability to adapt and change with the theories is great--gives us something to
think about and wrestle with and change to better understand our surroundings.
But why?
That's a question, I think, science cannot ascertain.
It's the 'why?' that always gets me. The hows and whats are great to figure out
and study and itemize and quantify, but it's the why?
We can go into philosophical debates and such, but we, as supposedly the only
higher intellect on this planet, are the only ones looking to even ask the
wuestion of 'why', yet alone trying to find an answer.
I asked myself, with my limited understanding of, well, everything, "can
something exist outside of what science encompasses, or even can encompass in
the future, no matter how long we are around or no matter 'how much' scientists
try? Can there be something, basically, outside the scope of science?"
I say yes.
Does that automatically lead to God? Well, no. But for me, with the ultimate
question of 'why?' points to something. I chose to call that something 'God'.
Does God have to exist for evil (or good) to occur? We can get into 'original
sin' but that, as pointed out here, leads to fallacies and other general
weirdness--Genesis 1 and Genesis 2- are contradictory. Sure theologians (and
I've sat thru amny explanations) try, but in the end if God wanted his word to
be understood, I think he would have made it a little clearer, and not leaving
it up to thousands of years of 'redacting'--you pick up two differnt
publications of the Bible today and you'll find the same numbered verses sayiong
contradictory things--it's one of the inherent properties of people--to make
themselves look better.
Inspired? Maybe. I wasn't there to witness. Infallible? Not by a long shot.
To justify a lifestyle solely on Biblical principles? Not bloody likely. The
Bible contradicts itself, as Richard showed, in many pasages and in many
different ways.
That said, is there things in the Bible that can be applied to our lives? Yes.
Do you need to be hit over the head with it? No.
If, as the church taught me, the law of God is written on our hearts, who cares?
If my uncle does what he does 'out of hte goodness of his heart', which is hwat
he does, who cares if he sits in a pew every Sunday or not--he's obeying the law
of God.
So who cares where you think your morality comes from? As long as you are a
moral person with care and compassion for your fellow person, as long as you
think about your actions and the possible impact of those actions on society, as
long as, for the love of all things, stop the needless suffering of others, who
cares where you draw that from?
My uncles life (he's 88 and still gets up at 6 a.m. and starts his tractor and
goes out into the 'hood and plows the driveways of little old women--no I'm
serious, that's what he does) is full of meaning and compassion, and yet he
doesn't profess the existance of God. And then there's padres speaking of "God"
on Sunday and taking advantage of the young and innocent throghout the week.
Again--put a sock in it. I'd rather hang around people who 'walk the walk' then
'talk the talk' and, from the cheap seats here--it seems most of the people I've
met don't do both. I'm not saying I'm any better. But I don't want to be a
hypocrite and say to others, "Hey! love God and read the Bible and go to church
and such things..." when I sit in church and listen to them gripe for 30+ years
about letting a woman preach!
More put a sock in it!
Sure no one's perfect! That's what they say. Well, if no one's perfect, what
makes you think that these people translating and interpreting the Bible over
the past 6 thousand years got it right in the first place, especially when you
read the differnt translations and come away with different interpretations!
The bottom line is I don't need Isaiah 5:8 to know that levelling all the trees
and paving over all the land is bad for the earth--common sense tells me that
this is true. Whether that sense comes from the law written on my heart or from
just 'good sense' as my uncle would say doesn't matter--as long as I know it to
be true, and it meshes with all the relevant facts.
Does God exist? Yes.
Will I ever convince anyone else? Nope. Like a Toronto Maple Leaf fan, you
either believe in 'em or you don't.
Dave K
-sorry about the tirades and tangents--this topic is something else entirely :)
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