Subject:
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Re: Holy crap! (was Re: The partisian trap in California)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:19:15 GMT
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Viewed:
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962 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Koudys wrote:
Richard has put his finger exactly on the problem, but I was interested in the
underlying logic of the questaion and decided to go ahead anyway for clarity's
sake.
> > It is a misrepresentation for you to claim that I, as an atheist, *believe*
> > in the nonexistence of something. There are those who may indeed believe
> > that God doesn't exist, but you are correct to identify such belief as a
> > statement of faith.
> Are they inherently different? 2 + !2 = 5 or 2 + 2 = !5
>
> Both equations are superfluously different, but inherently they are stating
> the same thing.
I'm afraid that this notation is unfamiliar to me, so I can't comment on it in
this format. 8^(
> Whether you say "I believe that God does not exist" or "I don't believe that
> God exists", you are, in fact, stating the same thing--that you believe in
> something. Rearranging the equation doesn't change the results--The word
> 'believe' is still there. Believe is akin to the equal sign in thr
> mathematics expression above. Whether the 'not' comes before or after the
> believe (equal) is just personal preference--the equation has the same
> results.
Assuming that "gubb" and "not-gubb" are actual things, consider these two
statements:
A: I have a not-gubb.
B: I do not have a gubb.
Under statement A, it is not possible for me to have *no* thing at all, because
I have a not-gubb. It is also possible for me to have a gubb, as long as I also
have a not-gubb.
Under statement B, it is possible for me to have *no* thing at all, and it is
also possible for me to have all things *except* a gubb.
Statement A is a declaration of what I have, while statement B is a declaration
of what I do not have.
Now take a look at the following:
A: I have the measles.
B: I do not have the measles.
Are these statements equivalent, differing only in my preference? I would
suggest that they are certainly not equivalent.
I submit that the phrase "to have the belief that..." is equivalent to the
phrase "to believe that..." If you disagree, let me know, and I'll formulate
another example. Otherwise, look again at my original two statements, this time
with slight, clarifying additions.
A: I have the belief that God does not exist.
B: I do not have the belief that God exists.
Statement A is a declaration of belief. Statement B is a declaration of the
lack of belief. The lack of a thing can hardly be said to be equivalent to the
thing itself.
Here's another formulation. (I'm not commenting on the mathematical feasibility
of either statement, but I can't recall my pure Boolean notation well enough to
write in that format.)
A: X + Y = not-Z
B: X + not-Y = Z
Statement A indicates that X plus Y can equal any sum, as long as that sum is
not Z. Another way to phrase it is to say that any two values X and Y will
yield any sum except Z. No matter what you do, X plus Y will never equal Z.
Statement B, by contrast, indicates that any value of X plus any value *except*
Y will yield sum Z. No matter what you do, X plus any value except Y will
always equal Z.
Statement B can only ever yield answer Z, whereas statement A can never yield
answer Z. Clearly, the two statements are not equivalent.
So here's my original claim once again:
A: I believe that God does not exist.
B: I do not believe that God exists.
We may, of course, infer additional information given the two statements, but
based solely on the information given:
what may we conclude that the speaker believes?
Given Statement A: We may conclude that the speaker believes that
God does not exist.
Given Statement B: We may not make any conclusions regarding what
the speaker believes.
and what may we conclude that the speaker does not believe?
Given Statement A: We may not make any conclusions regarding what the
speaker does not believe.
Given Statement B: We may conclude that the speaker does not believe
that God exists.
Does this help?
Dave!
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