Subject:
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Re: Holy crap! (was Re: The partisian trap in California)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:55:25 GMT
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Viewed:
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615 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal wrote:
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Dave Schuler wrote:
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Aside from these genetic issues, on what basis would you prevent
brother/sister marriages?
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Cultural values.
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And what are those cultural values based on? The reality of genetic inbreeding,
so it kinda loops back on itself. Saying cultural values is saying that it is
genetic issues, which is not in the “aside from” column. I think you need to be
more specific.
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As far as we (or they) were able to ascertain God’s will. I start from a
point that God is Absolute Morality, Absolute Goodness. Any perception of
God that is less than that reflects misunderstanding.
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If God gets to define what Absolute Morality and Absolute Goodness is. We get
to judge which particular god has the correct model of Absolute Morality and
Goodness, though.
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I am 100% atheist; do you therefore assert that it is impossible
for me to have non-religion-based morality?
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Eventually, yes. I believe that there is no compelling reason to be good
without God.
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I would go further and say that there is no transcendent “good” or “evil.”
That’s not to say that these concepts are wholly arbitrary, but I argue that
they are artifacts of our evolution as social organisms.
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We disagree. I would define God as “Good”, and the absence of God “Evil”.
Since you are atheistic, your assertion would make sense.
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Onwards Christian soldiers, marching ass-backwards,
slay your Christian neighbors, as you’ve done before
Your definition is suspect.
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The compelling reason to be “good,” in the sense that you describe, is
societal pressure consistent with evolutionary pressures.
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Hmm. I don’t see humanity as a whole progressing towards goodness. On the
contrary, the most horrific acts of barbarism in history occured in the 20th
century.
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I think we have become more effiecient at barbarism is all. Or perhaps with
increased population, we indulge in it on a more epic scale.
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God is holy, mysterious, and good. Characterizations of God other than
that are at best inaccurate.
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Without being (particularly) dense, I’m not sure exactly what “holy” means.
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Holy would be ultimate goodness, worthy of worship and adulation.
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So why don’t we skip the intervening newspeak and say that Goodness is worthy of
worship and adulation?
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However, I’ve said before that if God (or the Deity of one’s choice) is
beyond human comprehension, then there is no way to assess His goodness or
holiness, and He’s only mysterious if He actually exists. And, if He does
exist, then He could be transcendently vile, cruel, and evil, but if He
convincingly pretends to be good, how would you know?
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You can’t; it’s all faith.
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In short, there’s no way, short of a pure leap of faith, to conclude that
God has any particular characteristic (except mysteriousness).
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Exactly.
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So choice of faith is sheer hit or miss? Oh no, I feel a parody coming on...
YOU BET YOUR LIFE meets LETS MAKE A DEAL avec PYTHONESQUE
Monty God: Will you take the religion behind door number one, door number two,
or select what’s in the box that Odin is bringing down the stairs?
Soul About to be Judged: Ummmmm....errrrrr.....
Doomed Souls in the Audience: Take the box...door number 1...take that one that
the angel with the big knockers is standing next to (there’s always one in every
audience)...
Soul About to be Judged: Ummmm...door number...no...the box!
God: You’re sure?
Soul About to be Judged: (looking at audience as if they had a clue)
uhhhhhhh...yes?
Doomed Souls in the Audience: (assorted groans, catcalls, spiteful calls of
derision, and an increasing handful piping up about the Angel in the Push-Up Bra
(Yes, MtG players, her name is Sara))
Monty God: I’m offering you a poke in the eye.
Soul About to be Judged: Huh...what?
Monty God: Sorry, double-entend reference to “Monty” that JOHN will giggle
over....right! The Box! Odin, will you please show us what’s in the
box....oh, sorry! It’s ETERNAL Damnation!
(Soul Who has now been Judged is thrown into the lowest pit of hell to the
delighted cheers of the audience as a gout of flame pops up. Monty God walks up
the next contestant)
Monty God: I’m going to offer you the same deal, only it’s easier for you. Door
number 1 or door number 2?
2nd Victim Who Thinks He is Really a Contestant: (looking back at audience and
grinning) Oi wan’ th’ door wot Brenda Bristols is stanna nextta.
Monty God: Door Number Two...and that is Salvation! Congrats...oops.
sorry...jusssssssssst teasing: ETERNAL Damnation! Off you go...
(2nd victim looks bewildered, but has the presense of mind to make a futile grab
at Sara before he hurtles to his weird)
Monty God: (prowling audience looking for next vict...contestant) Love your
costume - great hair shirt, (looking at nametag) JOHN? Cap-lock on or just
shouting?
John: SHOUTING!
Monty God: Okay, same deal, but the only choice left is door number one.
John: THAT’S EASY (see’s Monty God plugging ears) sorry, that’s easy! I choose
door number one, then.
Monty God: You’re sure?
John: Of course.
Monty God: Really sure?
John: I have faith in my choice.
Monty God: And the considered reason for that faith?
John: Blind faith - I can’t have a reason or it’s not faith.
Monty God: So the other contestant’s faith is wrong - even though you admit you
have no reason to assume so?
John: You just flung them into Hell.
Monty God: Maybe I didn’t...maybe I flung them into Heaven and just made it look
like Hell to test you.
John: Look, I don’t wanna argue about this...
Monty God (waggling the big black cigar under his big black moustache and
raising his big balck eyebrows): Okay then, let’s see what’s behind door number
one...oh, as a man of faith, can you tell me the seven deadly sins?
John: Ummmmm...Doc, Dopey
Monty God: Sins, not dwarfs.
John: Envy, sloth, gluttony, lust, anger, greed...and...ummm....
Monty Python: (prompting) Arrogance...vanity...?
John: (triumphantly) Pride!
Monty God: Say the secret woid and win the special prize. Yes, John, you are
guilty of Pride in thinking that you have chosen the right door. Let’s open the
door: ETERNAL Damnation!
John: (struggling with demons trying to wrestle him into the pit to ask one last
question): Hey, that’s not fair! Which was the right door, then?
Monty God: You won’t like the answer.
John: (Gasping as he pokes a demon in the eye): Just tell me.
Monty God: You really won’t like the answer.
John: Just...tell...me!
Monty God: (revealing door hidden behind drapes): Door Number 42, of course...
...via Douglas Adams
(but that would have been giving away the outcome if I put that at the top)
:-)
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I absolutely think that the eradication of religion (and the willingness to
believe in other unsubstantiated fictions, such as astrology, Jon Edward, or
trickle-down economics) would be incredibly beneficial to humanity.
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Again, we disagree. I would point to the failure of Russian Communism, but
that is another debate. I would assert when religion is eradicated,
something replaces it, and that something is not necessarily better.
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Bad example: Soviet Communism was run as a state religion.
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Without (religion), we are lost and doomed to self-destruction.
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But which religion?
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I should have said, “without God, we are lost and doomed to
self-destruction”. Religion is merely a particular group’s understanding of
God.
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ETERNAL Damnation if you guess wrong.
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Besides which, there is no evidence that we, like countless species before
us, are not ultimately “doomed” to extinction. I find great comfort in
that, in fact; we likely won’t ever be powerful enough to do any real damage
to the universe at large!
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Seriously, why would you care if we blow up the whole universe?
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Seems a waste of resources. And why muck it up for everybody else?
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If religion makes people feel better, that’s swell. But that doesn’t mean
it’s correct. An uncomfortable truth is better than a comforting falsehood.
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Religion (talking about Christianity here) is not about “feeling good”. It
is about how we treat and serve each other. We love God by serving humanity.
To save our lives we must loose them to God (in service to humanity).
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Athiests can and do the same thing - yet they are evil? Hmmmmm (creeping out to
peep behind Door Number 42...)
-->Bruce<--
League of Green-Eyed Devil’s Advocates
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