Subject:
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Re: Misperceptions of America (Was: Conversation w/ a LEGO Rep)
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 1 Sep 1999 17:14:27 GMT
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Viewed:
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2137 times
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Simon Robinson wrote:
>
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Edward Sanburn writes:
> Scott
>
> Well several people wanted to know why a lot of Europeans don't
> think much of Americans - so I thought I may as well give my
> impressions based on discussions I've had with people I know.
> That doesn't necessarily mean I agree with all those impressions,
> although I am sympathetic to most of them.
>
> Nevertheless, a couple of points in your reply that caught my eye:
>
> <lots of snips>
> So if you felt that other people were more appreciative would that make a
> difference?
> Is is possible there's a vicious circle in which Americans people don't want
> to
> do things in other countries *because* they don't feel it's appreciated,
> while people
> in other countries still moan about Americans *because* they see Americans
> moaning whenever the US Government does something to help another country?
I don't mind the US government helping other countries in time of need, I mind
people, such as yourself, calling the US selfish because we will not finance
everyone's desire. Like I said before, it is the taxpayers money, not the
governments, and the politicians in question will be held accountable for their
actions.
> of guns being everywhere because Americans expect the right to have them.
> I don't see your point.
Well, duh. You are in England, where no right to bear arms exists.
> I suggested that the fact that US citizens expect
Do you have a problem with the definition of the word "expect?" The right to
bear arms is granted to every citizen of the United States by the second
amendment to the Constitution, it is not expected, it is a RIGHT. Please consult
a dictionary if you are still having a problem.
> be able
> to carry guns gives a poor impression to other people.
if I cared about the way people perceive me, I would not a a conservative
Republican with Christian values, that happened to enjoy using LEGO products.
Most people that have not experienced this country have a poor perception
anyway, such as the heading of this debate.
> How is the fact that the US Constitution says that going to make a difference?
If you don't know this, I am not going to say anymore about it. A difference?
Let's see, it gives us, the citizens of the United States, certain inalienable
rights, and that's one of the differences the Founding Fathers fought over,
something called the American Revolution, to split with the crown of England,
who didn't honor anyone's rights.
> If something is wrong
> (in either moral or practical terms),
In your humble opinion, I guess. Not mine. Let me ask you, have you ever been to
the bad sections of Flint, Michigan, or Detroit, Michigan, or how about Saginaw,
Michigan? I have, it is not pretty, I will not venture down there again because
it is extremely dangerous, and the next time I will, I will have a firearm,
because I have been granted to right to.
> then it doesn't become right just because it's
> written down somewhere.
In your opinon, again, not based on reality. Then I guess we can ban free
speech, and all the other rights granted to us as well. Oh, and the right to
assemble, and all men are created equal. Oh, and voting rights. I guess being a
leftist means you have no rights guaranteed by the government, huh? Give me a
break!
You know, I have enough trouble with leftists from this country not knowing the
Constitution and current laws and so forth, I do not need to try to explain to a
UK leftist how this country is.
> No of course there's nothing wrong with a church having right wing members.
> And there's nothing wrong in principle with churches who feel that attention
> needs to be drawn to certain political issues from airing their point of
> view.
> But there is a point where I start to hear church leaders announcing that
> being a good Christian means you have to support a certain political party
> where I personally start to get very uneasy.
How can you be uneasy. We have the Reverend Al Sharpton (Rep. from the House of
Representatives), a preacher from some New York church, telling his
congregation, that voting for Republicans is going to bring back slavery, for
God's sake! I guess since he is a Marxist, that makes it OK, then, huh?
Where did you see this? When, please tell me. The media in this country has
always portrayed Right-wing believers as "evil", I can't believe you would be
naive enough to believe your press talking about this. Maybe you are,
considering how ignorant some your statements are to this post. I have some
bridges to sell you if you are.
My pastor happens to be very conservative, but he never brings it to the pulpit.
The only thing he talks about is abortion and euthanasia (SP?), which is another
debate.
> So how come we never hear of the liberal churches getting involved in
> politics either?
> Are you saying that is due to the European media filtering that out?
European and American press. I always see right-wing extremists being blown out
of proportion, while left-wing extremists that destroy personal property, cause
huge traffic james in the most congested part of California, who happen to chain
themselves together to the Golden Gate Bridge, kill people and get away with it
(UPS Strike, 1997, Detroit), etc. Yes, it is biased, and shame on you for not
doing your own investigating.
>
> For 'distorting the Christian message' - I suspect we're going to disagree
> on what
> the Christian message really is here. I would say it carries a VERY strong
> element
> of social justice.
What do you mean, social justice? The poor in this country have it a billion
times better than the poor people is Jesus's time. We spent over 7 trillion
dollars on the "war on poverty", and guess what? The poverty rates are the
same., That tells me that money is not the answer, it is human behavior.
> Christ's lifestyle involved a lot of redistribution to
> the poor.
Oh, yes, he took from productive people, and just gave it to everyone else. >:(
What bible have you been reading. When the girl poured out the perfume before
the crucifixion, he said, "you will always have the poor, you will not have me
for long." (paraphrased, my bible is out in my vehicle!)
> (Interestingly
> it didn't appear to contain any element of moaning about high taxes:) ).
Oh, and money being spent improperly, putting the poor in even more dependency,
encouraging people to have more kids in poverty, etc., the highest levels since
WW2, and we are moaning. Get real.
> And
> I can't recall
> anything in the Bible about how Christians had to carry guns.
Well, duh, guns weren't invented yet. However, if you read your bible, you would
see that Peter did have a sword, and he chopped a guard ear off, when they came
to arrest Jesus. Guns are no different than swords, they carried it for
protection.
>
> > > But when it
> > > comes to politics, it's different. I've seen debates here on lugnet,
> > > where
> > > many Americans are saying about how they don't want to pay any taxes.
Who says they don't want to pay any taxes. I think most people here are fed up
with a bureaucratic monstrosity, that never seems to spend money wisely, that
continues to spend money on failed programs, and we should not be concerned. I
guess, to you, government is just great, no matter how wasteful and ineffective
they are.
> If you are concerned that the money is not being spent efficiently,
Yes, I am concerned.
> then
> that is
> potentially a valid concern. In that case I guess you'd be campaigning and
> arguing for the Government to become more efficient. BUT - in that
> debate we had on lugnet a few weeks ago about taxes I don't remember
> many people making that point. I do remember a lot of people from the USA
> arguing that basically they didn't want to pay taxes for this because they
> didn't want to help the poor anyway.
Then you misread.
> The main justification appeared to be
> the rather dubious assumption that if you're poor that must mean you're
> a scrounger and don't deserve to be helped -
Where did you get this?
> something for which no evidence was presented. When I cited possible reasons
> why someone might become poor through no fault of their own, everyone
> went strangely silent!
Maybe because it was so foolish.
> So I
> think my point about giving the *impresssion* (whether or not
> that is actually true) of being selfish is valid - certainly for that
> debate.
Yes, with your own faulty logic that has nothing to do with common sense.
Helping poor people, in a true time of need, is fine. Helping people maintain
dependence for countless of years because of laziness isn't. Come to the "Family
Independance Agency" in downtown Detroit, and you will see what I mean.
>
> Well you'll have to demonstrate in these discussions what a great country
> the USA
> really is then <grin>. I've spent two weeks in the states so far. I'd be
> quite interested
> in staying there for longer to get more of an idea of what life is like
> there. I'm sure
> one day I'll get the chance to do so.
Well, obviously, you don't seem to get it why the USA is so great if you can't
even comprehend the Bill of Rights, so I can't really debate this, can I? Come
over here, live here, and we will talk then. I suggest you start studying some
of these issues before you debate them, because from my standpoint, and your own
propaganda, it is clear to me you have a lot to learn about this country. Thank
God we split from England.
Sincerely,
Scott S.
--
Scott E. Sanburn
CADD Operator, CADD Systems Administrator
Affiliated Engineers, Inc. Ann Arbor, MI
Work Page:
http://www.aeieng.com/
Home Page:
http://www.geocities.com/~legoguy712/index.html
Lego Page:
http://www.geocities.com/~legoguy712/legoindex.html
“The more people I meet, the more I like my Lego collection.”
"The more leftists I meet, the more I want to leave the planet."
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