Subject:
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Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:03:34 GMT
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Viewed:
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1797 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Nathan Todd writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> > So, ok. I have absolutely no issues other than personal preference when it
> > comes to the answers that Nathan's given-- They all make perfect sense.
>
> Wow, wish I could end a debate on that note! (This is a joke, please do
> not take offensce).
Nah, I won't take offense. I try not to let anything said in o-t-debate get
to me-- it takes all the fun out of it :)
> > However, they ONLY make sense accepting what we (or at least I) would
> > consider to be *IMPERFECTIONS* in God. See below examples snipped from above:
>
> I assume from this you do not believe in God (particularly the God of
> christians). Please do not take it amiss if I refer to his existence in the
> positive. Besides believing it, I think it would be crazy to debate his
> existance and character at the same time. So I ask for the same concession
> as I got from Brendon.
No, I don't believe in him, but for the sake of the argument at hand, I'm
taking it as a given. Well, ok, that's not strictly true. My reaction
assuming that I knew the Christian God existed would be a bit more
bewildered and/or resentful. As it is I'm more negligent, I think.
> > By creating beings with "free will", God CANNOT know how they will react, or
> > else it's not free will. If the beings he creates are predetermined to act
> > in a certain way, and God attended every infintesimal detail of their
> > creation, he either doesn't KNOW what will happen, or his creations don't
> > actually have true free will.
>
> I don't see the logic in this (forgive me). We have free will but God
> knows what we will choose. What is so incompatible about this? It's like me
> asking you a question and knowing with certainty what you will say. You
> still have a choice in your words but I all ready knew what you would say.
Well, ok. There's two options:
Option #1: We have free will. We can choose what we want, and it's not
predetermined or known by God how we will choose. If this is true, then God
is at the very least imperfect in terms of his unknowingness. But also,
since we (having free will) are actually capable of choosing *evil*; and
because God *created* us with that capacity, score God up with another
imperfection.
Note that if option #1 is to be belived, I'm not totally against accepting a
possible variation on God. I could probably accept a God who wasn't perfect;
but only if he admitted his imperfections and appeared to me to be
well-intentioned. That's the only way he'd get my worship.
Option #2: We don't have REAL free will. We do what we think of as
"choosing", but really, we're already predetermined to make the choices that
we'll make. Further, because this was known by God at the time he created
us, it's really not *US* choosing, but God. It was up to God whether or not
I decide to be evil, not me. It was up to God to decide to make me "choose"
to have an affair with my neighbor's wife or to give food to needy families.
However, because it was *God*'s choice, not mine, I personally don't find it
"fair" to punish or reward me based on my "choices". God made the choices
for me when he came up with his universal plan. He decided long ago whether
or not I'll go to Heaven or Hell. Why should I accept responsibility for
choices I didn't actually make?
Hence, option #2 results in more of an existentialist viewpoint for me. If
my life's been pre-determined, and I'm obviously predisposed to disbelieve
in, or at the least not love/worship God, what's the point in me attempting
to better myself to that end? Why should I even try? If it's in God's plan,
it'll happen anyway, and if it's not, it won't happen despite my most
valient efforts. Either way, my choice doesn't matter because it's not
really my choice.
> I can regrett something without being wrong. A mistake is not definetly
> implied. I bought a lego set for $20 that normally costs $30. I was right in
> thinking it was a good deal but I regretted it when I saw it later for $10.
> (Lego example...Oh Yeah!) Again a joke.
Really? I consider 'regret' to necessarily indicate a mistake. If you bought
an X-wing fighter set for $20, later regretting it when it was $10, aren't
you saying that in retrospect, knowing that it would be offered for $10,
that you made a mistake in getting it for $20? IE that if you had known back
then that it'd be offered for $10, you'd hold off until that point?
I mean, there's a difference between "regret" and "sorrow". I bought 6 'Room
of the Winged Keys' sets for the 1x2 grey tiles so I'd have them to complete
a MOC I was working on. Later, they were released in cheaper sets. And sure,
I wish those cheaper sets were around when I was building the MOC, but if I
had waited, the MOC wouldn't have been done when it was. It would've had to
wait a year. So I wouldn't say I *regretted* buying the expensive sets, but
I *would* say that I'm sorry that I *had* to buy them instead of the cheaper
ones.
In any event, your other point (that I snipped) still stands-- God had the
option (and excersized it) to limit himself in some ways. Hence, perhaps you
mean to say that he was sorry that it came to certain events. I personally
just wouldn't call it "regret". Semantics, if so.
> I think it's more: Old Testament, Merciful God but evil people who in
> many cases sin in his prescence with no covering and he is obliged to judge
> them. New Testemant, through the blood of his son Jesus acting as an
> offering for all sin everywhere God's mercy and love can fully show themselves.
The issue here is the seeming arbitrary-ness. 1st God had one system, then
he's got something else. How do I know God isn't gonna change it on me
again? Especailly since, in a human world, it's not instantaneous. Some
child born in 12 B.C. in Ireland had no way of knowing about the 1st
covenant (which was in effect in 12 B.C.), but when he dies in 48 A.D., the
NEW covenant is in effect (and he STILL has no idea what it is). And what
about some Israelite who ALSO died in 48 A.D. who too knew nothing of Jesus'
exploits? He's still out there sacrificing goats and massacring Gentiles,
all the while not knowing that he's breaking the new covenant. And what if
he had instead died in 6 A.D.? Would he have been better off?
Anyway, who's to say that if I can't comprehend God, that I should follow
what I think I do understand about him? What if I'm reading it all wrong?
What if God still wants me to go out and smash Gentiles' skulls in? What
happens if God changes the rules again? Why should I trust my own admittedly
imperfect judgement system of something that's *obviously* beyond my
comprehension (accepting a priori that God IS perfect)?
> > Because we have the "God-given" right to free-will, I deem that God is
> > DEFINITELY deserving of our judgement. That's what we're here to do! Judge
> > God!
> That is one way of looking at it. I see our role as fufilling our
> original purpose of praising God.
Well, that's after the fact:
Phase 1: Decide whether or not you accept God. (aka judge God)
Phase 2(a): Praise & obey God
Phase 2(b): Decide God's not acceptable.
> We should worship him for the sacrifice he made to save us from our own
> sins. You can choose not to but that is perty ungrateful. Similar to
> kicking a gift horse in the mouth.
Well, alright, here's where I'll deferr back to the "does God exist?" bit.
If I really, honestly believed that the Christian God existed, I'd try
half-heartedly to worship him. I'd treat him like W.Bush. I'd rather he
weren't in charge, but I'm not going to go out and challenge him and/or spit
in his face. He does a better job than *I* could do, and he's certainly
powerful enough to command respect. But I'd inwardly regret having to
respect and obey him.
But, since I don't believe he exists, I don't really consider it ungrateful.
> Please read my response to the examples.
> Also what about the issue of the sacrifice Jesus made for you. If you are
> 'judging God' you should definetly give it some thought. I assume you have
> read about this in the bible if not let me know.
I've read precious little of the Bible, both Old and New Testaments. I've
tried a couple times, but I found it generally less than worth my while.
Maybe someday...
> P.S or whatever the net eqiv. is: I didn't mean to be rude with the God
> Bless. Please consider that I put it on every post, mean it, and think it
> really can't be that bad. I guess I would make too openminded of an atheist
> as I would look at 'God Bless' and see someone else waisting there time, no
> concern of mine, and in the unlikely (from an atheist perspective) chance
> that there is a God someone is asking him to bless me. It can't be bad
> either way unless I let it offend me and read into it something that isn't
> there.
As I headed the message, I personally certainly never saw it as offensive.
You'd have to work pretty hard at offending me :) I honestly just saw it as
more of a habit of yours, established assumedly by the best of intentions.
In the context of the debate I would expect it to be less habitual and more
heartfelt, but in any event, I find it much less than offensive :)
DaveE
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
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| (...) snip lots of stuff (...) big snip again (...) What if free choice is something like Quantum Physics (QP)? I've read somewhere that according to QP, ALL events happen, we just experience the ones we choose (the other events are potential (...) (22 years ago, 7-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: The Brick Testament parts the Red Sea
|
| (...) Wow, wish I could end a debate on that note! (This is a joke, please do not take offensce). (...) I assume from this you do not believe in God (particularly the God of christians). Please do not take it amiss if I refer to his existence in the (...) (22 years ago, 6-Dec-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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