Subject:
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Re: One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:25:27 GMT
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Viewed:
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3926 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John Neal writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Pedro Silva writes:
>
> > > Well, I meant *in* history, not for all time. The US is the greatest nation to
> > > have ever existed, even though we've only been around for 200odd years.
> >
> > Sorry to pop in in this discussion like this, but I dispute this point of
> > yours.
>
> No, welcome!
Thank you! :-)
> > I'd acknowledge the United Kingdom as the greatest nation the world
> > has ever seen, even if its context was considerably different
> > (colonial/imperial, I mean).
>
> That's funny. For those reasons the US gets criticized bitterly...
I used the expression "differnt context" for some reason. And I did not
criticize the USA for any sort of Imperialist attitude, did I?
> > You can say a lot about how great the USA are now, and you won't be totally
> > wrong (the country is great, IMO), but bear in mind that the American way of
> > life had its origin in the British way of life...
>
> Yeah, and life in Britian became so intolerable for some that they *left* it to
> find a better life and country here in America!
Innacurate: the Britons who originally left found life in the Colonies
better; the second wave of migrants did not even have British predominance
(Germans, Austrians/Hungarians, Russians, apatrids,...)
> > And so far, the USA have
> > not originated any significant nation. :-)
>
> lol If you are using the greatness of the US as a reason for Britian's
> greatness... that's what I call "dumb luck";-)
In no way it was pure luck; seizing opportunity had all to do with it. And
the infrastructure that enabled the american expansion was, in essence, British.
> > To my view, the ultimate evidence
> > that the UK was the greatest nation to date is the fact that it parted
> > itself into viable countries when needed, after giving them all the best it
> > could of its own costumes.
>
> Elaborate. Not sure to what you are referring.
British-inspired legal system. It is itself of Roman inspiration, but has
considerable differences towards the ancient legal systems of the Continent.
> > > Heck,
> > > Americans have driven SUVs on the moon-- we've landed stuff on Mars!
> >
> > The purpose of that remains disputable - science is great, but has the
> > condition of the average man been significantly improved thanks to Space
> > exploration?
>
> Are you kidding???? Haven't you ever heard of "velcro"!!?? (apologies to those
> who believe velcro is actually borrowed alien technology:-)
Heve you heard of zippers, or buttons? They do the same, without the
irritating noise. And now there are ziplocks - which I doubt have their
origin in NASA alone!
> > It is my oppinion that the moon trip was purely a showoff, a
> > good display of "we CAN do that, even though it's no use". An advertising
> > stunt, for the Cold War context.
>
> Wow. You are talking about argueabley the single greatest human accomplishment
> in the history of mankind. To reduce it to a "stunt" or to "show off" is about
> as short-sighted as one could get. Our destiny is out there in space IMO.
Our destiny is ultimately dust :-)
And I disagree this was the most important achievement of mankind - my
choice would go to writing.
> > > And yet,
> > > we could have rightfully claimed those places our own, but we didn't!
> >
> > Could you have kept them? (see the concept for African partition in Berlin
> > Conference, 1883 - you can only claim it if you occupy it ;-)
>
> That is not too far away. But even still we wouldn't do it.
>
> > See above.
> > Additionally, I'd risk pointing out that Norway seems to be now the greatest
> > place to live in,
>
> Norway??? Just going by depression and suicide statistics of Norwegians alone,
> I'd rule her out;-)
Aren't you confusing with Finland? :-P
> But seriously, if Norway is *so* great, why aren't people clammering to
> immigrate there?
Says who? I think they have plenty of wanna-be-immigrants moving there!
> And of the ones who are clammering to get into Norway, they
> are merely doing so so they can live off of the government, and it is causing
> an interesting backlash so I understand.
They solved the problem by enfoercing a restrictive legislation. And they
are doing fine so far.
> > according to UN statistics - Canada dropped it's place in
> > the rank a short while ago. And if a place is the best one to live in, it is
> > fair to call it "the greatest", don't you agree? :-)
>
> Sure. But the best thing Canada has going for it is her neighbors;-)
The Greenlandese??? :-D
> > > > If that paper disappeared right now, what would happen?
> > > > Would you *poof* disappear? Would your homeland cease to be the United
> > > > States of America, and revert back into the French Territory of Louisana,
> > > > Mexico and whatever else there was before 1776? Somehow I doubt it. Just
> > > > as I would not stop being a Christian because you took away my Bible, you
> > > > would not cease to be American if the Constitution were to disappear. You
> > > > have laws, you have judges, you have appeals, you have government. The
> > > > Constitution is a guideline and a pretty good one at that, as to how to do
> > > > things, but it should never be put above the individual.
> > >
> > > The Constitution *is* our government, and without the government, there is
> > > nothing to protect the rights of the people, and without that protection, you
> > > have anarchy, which is a far cry from the US today. Damn right this country
> > > would cease to exist as we know it.
> >
> > Are you this sure about the importance of an immutable Constitution? Our has
> > a clause in it that forces parliament to review it every 10 years or less,
> > no matter how good it is, to keep it up-to-date. It has worked fine... would
> > you claim the mere actualization of the Constitutional text, in order to
> > clarify it in the light of today's lifestyle, would torn apart the USA???
> > This can't be a good thing...
>
> Seriously, I don't know of anyone who would *presume* to second-guess the US
> Constitution, and if anyone ever did, for that reason alone I wouldn't trust
> them. If it ain't broke, don't fix it:-)
But what if it *is* broken? Have you considered that possibility?
> > And what do you think of other countries? Is there any country you could try
> > to live in? Would you try to adapt to a new country (suppose you had to
> > emmigrate due to work reasons), or isolate in the "american quarter" and
> > whine about how misfortunate you'd be for living abroad?
> > I dunno, but it seems to me you are simplifying the relation of your country
> > with the RoTW. No two countries are alike, all have good points and bad
> > points, that can't be "counted". Just because you believe your system is
> > great and suitable to you, that alone does not mean it *is*... ;-)
>
> It is when we talk about the cornerstones of our country, which are liberty and
> freedom. No other guards and protects them like we do. (This is our secret)
Again, I dispute that assertion that the US are the *sole ones* to protect
liberty and freedom. Maybe their role is more visible?
> > > the world's countries today, there is simply no comparison. I say this not as
> > > a braggart; it just happens to be a fact.
> >
> > (See above for nations)
> > I dispute this "fact" to be even a valid statement! (there really isn't a
> > universal form of comparison between countries, is it?)
>
> That's why I say, pick any category and let's compare (just not sports)
Name some categories, if you like (just for me to use as a guideline as to
what is acceptable in this "celebrity deathmatch" :-)
> > > But show me I'm wrong. I know this is coming off as a lot of flag-waving and
> > > Patriotic rhetoric, but try to see beyond that and really take a look at what
> > > this country has done in 200ish short years. It's downright remarkable. And
> > > then try and *explain* the US's success. And try not to conclude with "dumb
> > > luck":-)
> >
> > In two words: Pacific + Atlantic. Geography alone has given the USA great
> > opportunities, and the settlers knew how to profit from them. They did
> > right, and built a great nation. I only dispute it to be "the greatest to
> > date", or even the greatest *now*.
>
> If geography alone were the reason, then why aren't Native Americans sitting
> here saying that they are the greatest country in the world?
Assuming the Native americans descend from asian migrants, they sedentarism
was far more recent than the one of Europe. Thus, their development stage
was different to the European one. It is a valid argument, IMO.
Additionally, why would they bother with changing their lifestyle if it was
not threatened? The ultimate reason for the fast european development was
the frequency of conflicts!
> The settlers here
> didn't invent capitalism, and as it was pointed out elsewhere, our nation was
> built from those fleeing other countries to find a better life for themselves.
True.
> So what's so different about America?
>
> Here's my point:
>
> If the US were, say a socialist state:
>
> 1. Nobody would have bothered to come because they could have just as easily
> gotten repressed in their home country,
See BRITAIN!
> 2. The *opportunities* would not have existed and nothing would have been
> accomplished.
The opportunities are provided by mother nature. *Man* has to know how to
take advantage of them in the best way!
> We are the land of opportunity *because* our Constitution guaranteed the
> freedoms and liberties of its citizens to pursue their dreams. We built the
> proper framework of government which enabled our success. And that framework
> is our Constitution. *It* is what *allowed* us to be great.
IT is a piece of paper. The Brits don't have one, and have kept roughly the
same freedoms in a "de facto" basis.
Is there a chance that the FFs wrote down the Constitution to "not use" the
Magna Carta as the official reference? After all, it was British... and
could not be used by a country eager to show its Independence.
> Accomplishments aside, we are the freest country in the world. That *alone*
> should say enough.
How do you know that for sure? Have you checked all others?
(Please accept my suggestion and begin with Norway, if you want to compare)
Pedro
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