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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Daniel Jassim writes:
> One innocent Palestinian killed + their enraged family and friends + decades
> of occupation = indefinite hatred and revenge. The same equation may apply
> for any victim in an unjust situation. The keyword is innocent.
Replace the word "Palestinian" with the word "Israeli" and you have the recipe
for an eternal conflict. The cycle must be broken. Right now it seems that the
Palestinian answer is to kill also those enraged family and friends.
> Of course not, they were fighting for their lives.
So is Israel.
> Forgive my bluntness, but is there justice in a bunch of European Jews,
> largely converts,
What? Judaism is the hardest religion to convert to - you have to work for
years to become a Jew, plus, a Jew was the worst thing to be during the last
2000 years - why would anyone want to become one?
> invading and occupying another people *especially on the
> trumped up excuse that it was their God-given homeland thousands of years
> ago and they've finally "returned?" As if God is a landlord! And how can a
> people return when they never really left? The Semetic people of the Holy
> Land have remained despite the Romans, Persians, Mongols, Turks and so on.
> Despite the clear recognition of being Semetic people, the Arabs have
> conveniently been labeled as "transients" by the Zionists. Well, Judaism is
> replete with transients, especially a great man named Abraham who came from
> the town of Ur in Mesopotamia, now called Iraq.
What are you saying?
That the Jews that lived in Israel stayed there and somehow became the moslems
that are known today as "Palestinians"?
And while that was happening a bunch of europeans decided to convert to judaism
and reclaim the land of Israel?
That's very convenient, but unfortunately it has absolutely nothing to do with
reality.
Jews are Semites. You just have to walk the streets of Israel and look at them
to determine that. Sure, during the generations Jews lived in other countries
some cross marriages occurred (much less than what you would expect) but still,
there are obvious cultural and genetic links even between Jews in Yemen and
Jews in Sweden.
> If the point of view is that you ripped out my kidney and transplanted it to
> yourself and now cannot give it back or you'll die, then I guess I
> understand. Still, it still wasn't your kidney to take.
The Jews that came to Israel never stole anything.
Every Jew that came to Israel up to 1948 _bought_ his land. And the price was
hard cash, not beads or mirrors.
In 1948 the UN, aware of the fact that the Jews needed some place to live in
declared that part of the territory controlled by the UK would be the state of
Israel.
At that time the "Palestinian" people had no characteristics of a nation. They
were groups of people that came from neighboring countries over the last
centuries. They never governed themselves [1] and had little to unite them [2].
It's hard to claim theft of land when the land was bought and there was no
nation to steal from.
In 1948 the Arabs of the region decided that they would not tolerate a Jewish
state and went on the offensive in order to wipe out the Jews from the area.
The common battle cry was (and still is until this day) "Itbah El Yahud" =
"Kill the Jews".
The aftermath of this war was thousands of casualties from both sides and
thousands of refugees that fled Israel once the aggressor was turned away.
I'm sure that if the Arab armies involved (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon &
Iraq) won they would have no mercy for the Jews that were in Israel.
And besides, what would you suggest as a just and feasible solution?
That the Jewish people returns each to his origin country? [3]
I guess that that "perfect" justice would also involve the relocation of all
the non Indian Americans (including yourself).
> Well, Zionists are from the same fundemental branch as the Nazis--National
> Socialists. Israel for Jews. Things have changed since, mainly because of
> the need for Arab labor.
What? What is the connection?
This is at least the third time you've brought up Nazi Germany in this debate.
Are you one of those people who try compare Zionism to Nazism on every
occasion?
The ones that say that Israel is engaged in genocide? This is the worst kind of
anti-Semitic propaganda and obviously has no connection to reality.
> > Zionism did not start because of anything written in the bible. It started
> > because life in Europe became impossible for Jews and got it's major boost
> > after the Holocaust that proved beyond any doubt that the hatred against Jews
> > is so great that they really must defend themselves if they want to avoid
> > annihilation.
>
> I would never, ever attempt to justify the evil Nazi attrocities but what
> previously spawned such resentment for the Jews of Europe? I refuse to
> believe that the Jews were just minding their own business, not willfully
> doing anything that pissed anyone off. Once again, not a justification for
> the Nazis.
You seem to have too much understanding for all the wrong people.
I'm not sure I should even dignify that with an answer, but here goes:
Ever since the Roman empire turned to Christianity and needed to explain why
they crucified Christ the Jewish people were the easiest and most popular
scapegoat in europe (and across the world).
I guess the Gypsies, crippled, retarded and homosexuals also pissed everyone
off.
For that matter, so did Poland, Frace, England, Russia etc... ("why else were
they invaded?...")
> But let's be honest: Who invaded who? Who's Semetic and who's European?
Both the Jews and the Palestinians are Semites.
The Arab nations surrounding Israel invaded Israel in 1948.
> > You seem to have a double standard here.
>
> I really don't think so and I hope my previous comments on the rules of
> engagement best describe how I view the picture,
I still think there is an obvious double standard on your part.
> though I deplore injustice
> and violence. I encourage seeking out, recognizing and understanding what
> fosters such hatred and not contributing to it.
The most obvious contributor to the hatred is the Palestinian media and
leadership that educate a new generation of "Shaheeds" (martyrs) by
continuously portraying Israel and Israelis as monsters and by consistently
spreading false accusations like the ones you've been exposed to. (see my
original post for some ridiculous examples).
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
- David
[1] Up until Israel withdrew from the parts the Palestinian Authority now
governs. Note that the Palestinians in neighboring countries still do not
govern
themselves.
[2] That changed over the last 53 years. The battle against Israel (and against
other ruling governments, like Jordan's) would create a common history to unite
them.
[3] I can trace my family 9 generations back in Israel on my mother's side and
11 generation back on my father's side. Were should I return to?
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: War
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| (...) One innocent Palestinian killed + their enraged family and friends + decades of occupation = indefinite hatred and revenge. The same equation may apply for any victim in an unjust situation. The keyword is innocent. (...) See equation above. (...) (23 years ago, 16-Sep-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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