Subject:
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Re: Rolling Blackouts
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 28 May 2001 08:23:53 GMT
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Viewed:
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3483 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Larry Pieniazek writes:
> > > In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Scott Arthur writes:
> > >
> > > > > This is a classic tragedy of the commons problem. Whoever most insanely
> > > > > exploits the commons "wins",
> > >
> > > > Welcome to the planet earth Larry.
> > >
> > > What is that supposed to mean, exactly? I've been here all along and have
> > > been quite aware of this class of problem inasmuch as it points out a major
> > > failing in the concept of public ownership.
> >
> > Explain please.
>
> Explain the tragedy of the commons? Your cite referenced it, I assumed you
> are familiar with it.
Not my point - but never mind.
>
> >
> > >
> > > > > but the commons (in this case, fish stocks) is
> > > > > destroyed.
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What exactly WOULD you do about overfishing? What is your concrete proposal
> > > > > to address it? Owning the fish isn't practical, is it? What is?
> > > >
> > > > I think you are cherry picking points from my post rather than
> > > > jutifying your
> > > > past "arguments" and claims. I shall humour you.
> > >
> > > > The eu operates a quota system were fishing is concerned. There are strict
> > > > limits on both the number of fishing licenses a country can have (although
> > > > fishermen can, and do, sell them overseas) and the amount of fish it can land.
> > > > The problem with the system is that the freemarketers (fishermen) have no
> > > > respect for the law or the resource they are exploiting.
> > >
> > > If they are breaking laws they are not freemarketeers, unless the laws are
> > > unjust.
> >
> > Explain please.
>
> Explain the notion that a person engaged in stealing is not a free
> marketeer? Seems obvious to me. Maybe you're not as familiar with property
> rights???
A good start Larry, but I do doubt your notion free marketeers do not break
laws. Further, what gives them the right to decide laws are "unjust"?
>
> > > In the absence of property rights (which haven't been demonstrated
> > > to work) these particular laws appear to be the best we have got. So do be
> > > careful who you call a freemarketeer in an unfree market.
> > >
> > > > This ultimately
> > > > results in ever reducing licences and quotas:
> > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1049000/1049859.stm
> > > >
> > > > The fishermen then complain that they are being over regulated. They are too
> > > > selfish to see that they are ultimately to blame as they cannot be trusted. >>In
> > > > short, I think the eu system would work better if it was enforced more
> > >
> > > In short, the system isn't working, then, but doing more of the same will
> > > work?
> >
> > Did I say that? No. Anyhow, what is your altermative.
>
> No, you didn't say that. That's just my sound bite on what it seems you are
> saying.
You should make yourself clear then Larry. Deliberate misrepresentation of
an argument – very libertarian.
> Feel free to explain. What ARE you saying? What IS your alternative?
> I am not saying I have one at this point (that's the point of this thread,
> to put up alternatives), it's your turn to explain your proposal rather than
> taking pot shots.
I think I already have Larry.
> I know that's a bit harder but I want to play your role
> for a while.
You can start by explaining yourself then Larry.
>
> What IS your alternative? Current exactly as it is? Some expansion or change?
Read my most Larry.
>
> > > Please elaborate on what exactly you mean by "enforced more". How do
> > > you propose that be accomplished?
> >
> > By "enforced more", I mean the law should be enforced more. The
> > freemarketeers should be trusted less.
>
> Better enforcement?
Now you are getting it.
> How does that work exactly?
The law is enforced.
> What exactly would you do?
> Put an enforcement officer on each boat?
No.
> Count catches?
Yes.
> Confiscate boats
> that didn't have permits?
I expect that happens anyway.
> Elaborate.
>
>
> > > Let's be precise here. I didn't shrug off the fact that many economists are
> > > concerned. I'm concerned too. But I don't believe that all 2500 economists
> > > share the precise prescription for solution, just the concern that there is
> > > a problem. You'd never get 2500 economists to agree to one particular >solution.
> >
> > You are sqirming again Larry. Go back. Read your posts and explain yourself.
> > Show us how the market can be trusted to look after the environment. Show us
> > how the market would take on the big environmental issues... not just the
> > usual window dressing.
>
> In this thread I have not said it could. I'm even suspending my disbelief in
> government regulation, at least long enough for you or others to explain how
> it would work. Asserting that it works isn't an explanation. You have my
> attention. Convince me.
The leaded petrol URL I gave is a prime example of how regulation protects
us, and our environment, better than the free market. I suggest you read it.
Further, if you read around you will see that the market was against the
bans of both CFC's & DDT.
>
> > I shall give you another example of where it does not work
>
> Let's stick to one exaple till you finish it, shall we?
You are squirming again. Explain yourself. Show us why you think the 2500
economists were wrong.
Scott A
>
> ++Lar
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Rolling Blackouts
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| I started twitching spastically 2/3 of the way through this. Scott, in ten years on the net, actively participating in conversations with all kinds of people with all kinds of beliefs, from all over the world, I have never, ever, met anyone as (...) (25 years ago, 28-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Rolling Blackouts
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| (...) Explain the tragedy of the commons? Your cite referenced it, I assumed you are familiar with it. (...) Explain the notion that a person engaged in stealing is not a free marketeer? Seems obvious to me. Maybe you're not as familiar with (...) (25 years ago, 26-May-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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