Subject:
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Re: A question of remembrance...
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:15:33 GMT
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Viewed:
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451 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Shiri Dori writes:
> Hey Dan, Hi Richard, and Jeremy and Dave.
>
> First of all - I want to make it loud and clear that I am *totally* biased.
> Not only am I 100% Jewish, but my whole family suffered from the Holocaust,
> I have a very small extended family because most of my grandparents'
> families were exterminated in WWII. My two grandmothers spent the war in
> ghettoes and later in Auschwitz, my mom's dad fled to Israel right before
> the war, and my dad's dad was recruited from then-Palestine to fight on the
> British army. For as long as I can remember myself I've heard personal
> accounts of the horror, from the Jewish side. So that's my disclaimer. I am
> totally biased.
>
> Now, to reply.
>
> Suffering such as occured in the Holocaust should not happen. To anyone.
> There is no justification in the *world* to subject *any person* to the
> horrendous ordeals that people suffered then (and, as Dan pointed out, still
> do suffer). And anyone who suffered and/or died from such causes should be
> remembered, so that the case not happen again.
>
> But I concede, that's hard to do. I don't do that myself (I'm a hypocrite;
> but aren't we all?). There are a few problems with the statement above. A
> few major flaws.
>
> Firstly: once the personal accounts of these people are reduced to a mere
> statistic, it is *so* hard to remember that each one of those was a living,
> breathing person with emotions and personal plights and that *each one* of
> them went through horrible, horrible things. What's 6 million? 10 million?
> 600,000? Incomprehensible numbers.
>
> Secondly: It's so much easier to think and relate to what immediately
> connects to you. I agree that the plights of Gypsies, homosexuals,
> handicapped and others were just as horrendous as those of the Jews.
> Totally. But to a Gypsy, certainly it is easier to think and remember
> his/her personal history and to focus on the Gypsies murdered and tortured.
> Even moreso if this same Gypsy's father (or whomever) was in the Holocaust,
> survived and lived to tell his children the tale, firsthand. Even moreso if
> (and of course it does) this affected the way this father raised his
> children accordingly. Likewise to a homosexual, a handicap or a Jew. Or a
> Bosnian. An Armenian (early 20th century - how many people know about that
> but Armenians? Who talks about that?). Or someone from Rwanda. You get the
> point.
>
> Next point: Since our society *does* tend to turn people into statistics, it
> becomes apparent that out of the 12 (?) million brutally murdered in camps,
> ghettos, etc. by Nazis, 6 mil of them were Jewish. The Nazis targeted many
> groups, but their main focus *was* on Jews. The biggest propaganda was
> against them. (The stereotypes were not "the suffering Jew", but "the rich
> and successful Jew while all of Germany is in inflation".) They were a large
> population *and* an easy target. The other groups were easy targets as well,
> but smaller populations. And the statistication (did I make that word up?)
> of the suffering puts it simply; Jews were the largest group. Does that mean
> that any individual Jew particularly suffered more than any other
> individual? Certainly not. But nevertheless, the amount of people who were
> singled out for being Jewish was *significantly* greater than people signled
> out for any other reason.
>
> Ever since I remember myself, I have heard first-hand stories and accounts
> of the ghettos, the camps. I've seen the numbers ironed into my
> grandmother's arm. And, yes, I've heard this as part of a biased view of
> history, which is Israeli and Jewish history. I've learned that Jews were
> deported from place to place, never had a safe place to stay, and look, now
> we have Israel, thank God. Remember the Holocaust - don't let it happen
> again - keep your eyes forward, on this new country, don't let it slip, it's
> our safety net. (This is a reply to Dan's anti-Zionist argument.) This is
> the way I was taught, I was raised on these beliefs. I can't say I still
> believe this is entirely right; nor is it entirely wrong. It's history from
> a *Jewish* *Holocaust survivor*'s point of view. All history is biased,
> history is a personal thing, it's *someone's story*, and without realizing
> that, it is impossible to understand history.
>
> So what's my point? Lemme think. ;-)
>
> I do not underestimate, not by one bit, the horrible atrocities that were
> inflicted on non-Jewish populations. But I admit that they are who I think
> about when I think about the Holocaust. I think about my grandmothers - I
> think about the stories I've heard - about the women who had almost no food,
> yet gave part of their meager rations to the younger girls (like my grandma,
> who was about 15 when she got into Auschwitz. Younger than me.). You know
> what I mean? I think about the underground resistance forces. The people
> that hid Jews and others in their house, despite the enormous risks. I think
> about those who died and those who survived against all odds. I think about
> the horrible soul-diminishing acts that the Nazis tried to inflict, and
> eventually failed, because look - here we are now, Jews, and homosexuals,
> Gypsies, handicapped, and any other group I unintendingly omitted - still
> standing, and proud. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. Many people
> were killed. But some survived, and emerged stronger therefore. Some tried
> to forget the horrors, but I believe that those who remembered and passed it
> on are truly the brave ones.
>
> There's no right and wrong here. There is no such thing. And (as my U.S.
> history teacher would be proud to hear me say (1)), there is no one history.
> It is completely and entirely biased, and *every* person you asked will tell
> history differently, focusing on different things. Jeremy's right - history
> is written by the "winners". If the Germans had won WWII, I wouldn't be
> sitting here, and certainly wouldn't be able to defend Jews. But they didn't
> win - my grandmother *was* one of 42 women to be selected for work out of
> 1000 sent to die - etc., thus I'm sitting here, and I will continue to tell
> the stories that I heard for as long as I live, because I was taught to
> "remember and never forget" (loose translation of "Lizcor ve-lo Lishcoakh").
> And for *me*, the Holocaust rememberance day (2) will remain mostly focused
> on Jews, but I will never entirely put aside nor fail to mention the fact
> that they were not the only group that suffered.
I find it very ironic that a whole nation apparently solemnly commemorates
the WW2 persecution when they themselves are current persecutors. Very ironic.
I note that there is currently an economic blockade of Gaza and the West Bank:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1294000/1294004.stm
Scott A
>
> So peace out, and please teach your children YourStory, not HisStory (3).
>
> -Shiri
>
> (1) This one is for you Ms. Nields!! ;-)
>
> (2) Which *was*, BTW, instated by Israel, IIRC. And the complete name is
> "Yom ha-Zicaron la-Shoah ve-la-Gvurah" - the Day of Rememberance of the
> Holocaust and the Bravery. Which is a matter for an entire other thread.
>
> (3) Anyone ever read Politically Correct Bedtime Stories? It's her-story,
> anyway!
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| (...) invasions and occupation of land in Egypt, Syria and Lebenon and their occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. On a side note: the USA still maintains sanctions against Cuba, really for no good reason other than because the Cold War generation (...) (24 years ago, 25-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: A question of remembrance...
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| Hey Dan, Hi Richard, and Jeremy and Dave. First of all - I want to make it loud and clear that I am *totally* biased. Not only am I 100% Jewish, but my whole family suffered from the Holocaust, I have a very small extended family because most of my (...) (24 years ago, 24-Apr-01, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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