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At 03:31 AM 8/14/99 , Anders Isaksson wrote:
> Todd Lehman skrev i meddelandet <37b47be5.155614673@lugnet.com>...
> > You seem to suppose that everyone who's willing to learn some craft is worth
> > taking the time to teach that craft.
>
> I didn't _suppose_ anything, I just wrote down a gut reaction. When a group
> starts throwing people out, it's the beginning of group decay. Some people
> will always be on the side of the outthrown, and start complaining of the
> treatment he/she got, you get factions, and fighting.
True, but in this case throwing Jonathan out would not lead to
factions. His posts have been an *entire group* annoyance and though many
people have tried to help him throughout these months he has refused this
help by his silence. It would be a vast majority of the group's desire to
'throw him out' in this particular case.
> Soon you'll have more throw-outs, and sooner or later you end up with a small
> 'elite' that makes all the decisions, and most others are off (or considered
> 'off').
Not necessarily. One, there's a difference between newbies and arrogant
ignorant idiots. Newbies come because they want to be a part of the group
but don't yet know the group's standards and other general unwritten
rules. But they learn, fast. The latter hides under the mask of a newbie
constantly wearing down on the group - no matter what kind of
'contribution' he/she is giving.
> I realize the group has a problem here, but I don't think the best solution is
> throwing people out. _Every_ other way to solve the problem _should_ be tried
> first.
Well, we've tried calm positive messages to help, we've tried flames, we've
tried this thread even. Only time will tell if it has worked. But over
all, this has gone on for over 6 months. That is way too long, and this
kind of action is necessary now.
> I think a 'screening team' for parts is a good idea for _helping_ new authors,
> but I don't know how that could stop anyone from sending in new parts directly
> to the list. In the same way, throwing anyone out does not take away their
> possibilities to send direct email to others, so it's still only 'sweeping the
> problem under the carpet'.
But the screening team won't be necessary in the case of *all* new
authors. Some come in and get it right off the bat. Some don't get it but
still are respectful of the group... etc...
Anders, Don't worry about this splitting up the group. For one, in any
social entity there are factions, concrete or hidden, they exist. They
might not fight each other directly, but they hold different or slightly
different views. We've seen a little of this on Lugnet as a whole, and
even here in cad.*. But as you can see the vast majority of the group is
fed up with this particular case. If anything it will bring the group
together. Once this is over there will be a new sense of beginning and
production will rise :)
> > Whatever happened to independent learning?
>
> I don't understand what you mean with this question, perhaps my lack of
> English?
>
> How could you ever learn anything without interacting with others? How could
> anyone realize the 'LDRAW standards' without communication/cooperation with
> the rest of the group?
That's not *exactly* what he means. I believe he means taking the time to
learn by experience as much as possible alone. This doesn't mean you can't
ask for help or observe posts. It means to take the initiative to conquer
as much as possible while experiencing it hands-on.
For example:
In November 1996 I joined the online Lego community and set up my own
website. At that time, I didn't know jack about HTML and was even *scared*
of it. But in the urge to put up my site, I took what the GeoCities EZ
Homepage Editor gave me. I looked at the source, and took it apart. I
discovered that <a href=""></a> must be a link. And that <li> must be a
bulleted item. And that the body tag controlled the colors of the page. I
then set up a basic page. Over the years I've looked at online references,
looked at others' pages, and emailed people, taking apart HTML and learning
by experiencing it. By the onine references, help from friends, and
looking at other pages as examples I learned a great deal. But I didn't
pester people about it. This wasn't a conscious thing, I just did this
because it was a means to achieve a nice website for myself. It took time,
and lots of patience, and lots of mistakes. But now I'm proficient in HTML.
*That's* what independent learning means.
-Tim <><
http://www.zacktron.com
http://www.ldraw.org
AIM: timcourtne
ICQ: 23951114
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