Subject:
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Re: Problems with Christianity
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Tue, 19 Dec 2000 20:34:50 GMT
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Viewed:
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613 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, David Eaton writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Steve Chapple writes:
> > > > You could prove the existence of God or love in a court, but not a lab.
> Ah. As I suspected. Our definitions of 'prove' differ. To take a rather
> controversial case, did O.J. Simpson commit murder?
Interesting - I was thinking of using the same analogy. :-)
Two big differences though - Murder is a crime giving death, and O.J.
denied it. Christ's resurrection gives life to whomever accepts him,
and not only did he "admit it" afterwards, He (and others centuries
earlier) even said before-hand that he would rise again.
> …I count my doubt as very reasonable. Again, this method of
> "prove" of which you speak is subjective. I prefer objectivity (obviously).
I don't consider your doubt unreasonable. I'll try to allay your
doubts, but I'm not following you on subjective and objective.
> The 1st dimention is infinite. It is also infintesimal.
You've _completely_ lost me here.
> …Jesus at one point in time DIDN'T exist.
According to the Bible, He has always existed. [1]
> > > …People who lived 3,000 years ago had no chance…
Is your concern about Christianity those who didn't have opportunity to
hear the good news of salvation? This is more of a separate subject IMO.
The Bible does describe Jesus "preaching" to those who died before him
during the three days his body was in the tomb.
> …If by your theory, it would appear that you damn them
Not at all.
> > Again, I'm trying to lead you to the living water[1], but even if I
> > succeed, I can't make you drink.
>
> Ah yes. And am I not trying the same? To try and get you to see
> from my perspective?
I think our different perspectives are due to a fairly basic
difference. (see "good and evil" below)
Re: Selfishness
Abortion would be the prime example of selfishness and its tragic
consequences, but I doubt you want this to be a debate on abortion.
> Some... ...I really don't see as problems that you obviously do, and
> others I really don't see as having really increased... ...in percentage.
The statistics on the increase _in_percentage_ of these problems
should be easy for you to obtain.
> > If everyone does whatever they want, isn't that anarchy?
>
> Ah, but here's where the theory gets interesting. While, yes, in theory,
> this could be anarchy, in actuality, it doesn't happen. Why? Because part
> of the FUNDAMENTAL development of the human concept of morality is in
> our sense of SOCIETY. Morality wouldn't develop without it...
The more you describe "your morality", the more (I think) I see the
basic problem. The Bible says that man is essentially evil and in
need of a Savior - you (I think) say man is essentially good.
> > There's a passage in Philippians chapter 2 that I think is
> > particularly relevant to your query:
> >
> > 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility
> > consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not
> > only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
>
> Ah yes, but let's play for a second. What if I say "why should I?"
> What's your response? That I should do it for my own salvation?
No - Salvation is not based upon works. [2]
> Why should I do anything for someone else's sake?
> …[what] good will come out of my action for ME?
Paul was writing to the Philippian believers - ie. Christians, so it's
not surprising that you seem to see this "backwards". [3] I don't
"give" in order to "get", I help someone because I love them.
> > 5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
> > 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God
> > something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very
> > nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found
> > in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to
> > death-- even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the
> > highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
> > 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on
> > earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus
> > Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
>
> So I should be selfless because maybe if I am, I'll get some portion
> of that glory! Cool! Isn't that pretty gosh-darn selfish?
Wow - I sure didn't see that one coming. :-)
Christ was already exalted and glorified. The creator of the universe
"made himself nothing", in order to pay the price for our sin because
He loves us, not to get something he already had. Jesus is the
opposite of selfishness, not an example of it.
I'll do my best to answer you, but you probably won't see and
understand [3] unless the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to you.
I encourage you to ask Him to do so.
SRC
[1] John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 Through him all things
were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him
was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in
the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
[2] Ephesians 2:8,9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves,
it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[3] John 12:37-47
37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence,
they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of
Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the
arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe,
because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and
deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor
understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."
41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.
44 Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe
in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 When he looks at me, he sees
the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that
no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. 47 "As for the person
who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did
not come to judge the world, but to save it.
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Message has 3 Replies:
 | | Re: Problems with Christianity
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| (...) And I ask, which is a better view of humankind? Personally, I would tend to think that Christianity is a pessimist's view, if it says man is essentially evil. No thanks. -- | Tom Stangl, Technical Support Netscape Communications Corp | Please (...) (24 years ago, 19-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
| | | Re: Problems with Christianity
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| (...) Um-- huh? I don't really understand where that statement came from. I was asking you about proving things in a court, and whether a court's decision represents "proof". If O.J. was found innocent, does that PROVE his innocence? If someone who (...) (24 years ago, 20-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Problems with Christianity
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| (...) Ah. As I suspected. Our definitions of 'prove' differ. To take a rather contravertial case, did O.J. Simpson commit murder? Both sides presented their cases, and O.J. won. Does that prove that he didn't commit murder? Perhaps he 'proved' it to (...) (24 years ago, 18-Dec-00, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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