Subject:
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Re: Responsible Hunting (was Re: We are what we eat. Or is that "whom we eat?")
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sat, 5 Aug 2000 20:10:07 GMT
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Viewed:
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2596 times
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Christopher Weeks wrote:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, Tom Stangl writes:
> > Christopher Weeks wrote:
> >
> > > > In this light they do not choose to copulate; they are driven to it.
> > >
> > > Do you think that this is different with humans?
> >
> > Do you HONESTLY think human sex drive is the same as deer?
>
> Well, that's not what I said, is it? At least not that it's exactly the same.
> I think that more paralells can be drawn between human and deer motivation than
> many people seem to think are valid.
>
> > Come on, now, really.
> > Deer don't have recreational sex,
>
> Cite.
Show me a deer copulating outside of the hormone driven mating season. You won't
find one, unless some researcher is playing with deer hormones (which points back
to deer not having the control humans do).
> > humans do. While hormones CAN affect humans,
>
> And do. All the time. Every second of every day of every year of your life.
> Period.
Nowhere near the same way as with deer - we can ignore the urges easily enough.
> > humans can generally have/not have sex whenever they feel like it.
>
> I won't argue this because I beleive it to be fruitless. But I will say that I
> don't think it's quite that clear cut.
What's fuzzy about it? If YOU have no control over your sex drive, I feel sorry
for you.
> > > I can't put this all together. You asserted that plants are sensory • organisms,
> > > and my response was that they're just reacting biochemically. Is that what • you
> > > mean?
> >
> > If I REALLY had time, I'd dig out the references for some experiments done in
>
> Well, I've had several people (starting with my mother) try to tell me that
> plants have feelings. They universally refer to "those studies." Yeah, right.
> I'll read them with an open mind if someone can ever really produce said
> studies. But I've been waiting for about 23 years with no results.
>
> the
> > 70s or 80s - in one, the researcher THOUGHT about dipping the leaf of a plant
>
> So not only are they sensory, but they are telepathic? Uh-huh.
>
> > You might be able to prove "just reacting biochemically" on the second
> experiment
>
> I might be able to prove that those "experiments" were falsified and completely
> irreproducable.
>
> > I can't remember the plants used, unfortunately. I THINK philodendrons
> > in at least one experiment.
>
> Interestingly, philodendrons were the subject presented to me in earlier
> examples too, so that must be right.
>
> > My problem is you are forcing a CNS as the "magic" - prove to me that a CNS • similar
> > to mammals is REQUIRED for any form of sentience.
>
> I don't believe that so I shan't try to prove it to you. I do think that an
> animalian CNS is the only thing on earth that leads to sentience.
>
> (BTW, plants reacting
> > "biochemically" can be equated to animals CNS transmitting sequences - after • all,
> > OUR CNS is simply a chemical pathway).
>
> Right, but then we're back to being non self determinant and we might as well
> throw in the towel on everything.
>
> > The "magic" in my mind is self-awareness
>
> Hard to define.
>
> > and changing the environment to suit the
> > organism, rather than the other way around.
>
> Like beavers?
Beavers change it the same way every time, it's hardwired into them. Humans change
the environment to suit them in much more self-deterministic ways.
> And, we've changed over the years to suit the environment.
Of course, but that is general evolution, outside of our changes to the environment
to suit us (and many of those changes are obviously more damaging than NOT changing
it).
> > Very few organisms on Earth fit that criteria.
>
> Only if you define changing the environment so strictly as to purposely rule
> out other organisims.
>
> Chris
--
Tom Stangl
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