Subject:
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Re: Goodness of Man? (was: Re: Merry Christmas from the Libertarian Party
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Sun, 2 Jan 2000 02:23:41 GMT
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Viewed:
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1498 times
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In lugnet.off-topic.debate, John DiRienzo writes:
<snipped lots>
Took me a bit to read through that and have it sink in, but I think I
understand what you're getting at. And I (cynically) disagree. I don't think
society is sufficiently evolved for a system like the Libertarian model to
work.
> > > 2. People are lazy because they are *enabled* to be lazy. There weren't
> > > very many lazy people on the american frontier 100 years ago.
> >
> > Biased test sample. 100 years ago, there were lots of lazy people who chose • to
> > stay where they were instead of going to the american frontier.
>
> Invalid answer. 100 years ago, there were no slave owners, who we could
> definitely call lazy. 100 years ago, there were no Federal income taxes,
> used to redistribute wealth. Whether the American sampled lived "back home"
> or on the frontier, there weren't many (nearly as many!) lazy(1) people.
I wasn't limiting my test sample to Americans.
> > > Set society up to ensure people suffer the consequences of their actions
> > > and you'll soon stop complaining about how lazy everyone is.
> >
> > This isn't the part of libertarian theory (disclaimer- as I understand it!)
> > that I have a problem with. What I think is unworkable is the high level
> > of awareness the system asks of individuals. (yeah, I know - see point #3.
> > Under my analysis, virtue "awareness" is required to be higher than you
> > feel is necessary.)
<snipped long tangent>Sure. I, however, maintain that people have not evolved
enough to support a social system as evolved as the Libertarian model.
> > > It'll take time to shake off 60+ years of bad habits but it's doable. We
> > > have to break the "entitlement mentality". People aren't entitled to
> > > anything, really, other than rights protection.
> >
> > Hmm. I think I'm entitled to anything I work for, and anything I'm given -
> > assuming the giver worked for it (or that it was worked for somewhere back
> > along the giving chain).
>
> Even if it was taken, but not given with consent? I find that evil(1).
> If you don't feel entitled to anything taken against someone's will, then I
> don't find you evil (on that count - we all are, thats been said prior).
That's what I said, essentially. "worked for somewhere back along the giving
chain" was meant, in my patented, concise and misleading way to convey that it
had to be worked for at some point, and given freely thereafter.
> > > 4. Finally, constructive laziness as a vice is way overrated. It's
> > > actually a virtue. We have constructively lazy people to thank for just
> > > about every labor saving device ever devised. Edison was one of the
> > > laziest people to ever walk the face of the earth. Thank goodness. Each
> > > and every productivity improvement is basically an instant creation of
> > > wealth, because now we can spend less time doing what we have to and
> > > more on what we want to... I remain boggled that I had to work only
> > > about an hour to earn enough to buy 3 (!!) portable CD players.
> >
> > Yeah, I'm a big fan of constructive laziness, too. I'll quite happily put
> > in several hours of work now to save me 5 minutes a day going forward. I
> > don't think, however that most people will transfer their constructive
> > laziness to a societal model unless it's made very clear that they'll get
> > more out of it than they're putting in. People who raise the bar (like
> > Edison) are also exceptions to the norm - no matter the trying, most people
> > do not (IMHO) have it in them to clearly conceive and execute the proverbial
> > light bulb.
>
> Of course not everyone is going to invent things, and nothing's wrong
> with that.
That's not what I meant. I don't think that the majority of people have the
vision or the strength of character to put effort into improving society
(raising the bar) as opposed to improving their position therein.
James
http://www.shades-of-night.com/lego/
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