Subject:
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Re: ...just one more form of anti-Semitism
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Mon, 1 Aug 2005 19:53:28 GMT
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Viewed:
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1156 times
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Much of this article is filled with fallacy and nonsense arguments. The guy is
upset but isn’t doing a very good job of convincing me that his side is actually
right.
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Both the Presbyterian Church and the Episcopal Church have taken steps which
could lead to disinvestment of corporations doing business with Israel in the
next two years. They are accusing Israel of numerous transgressions in its
four-year-old war against the Palestinians.
Their approach severely costs them in credibility and therefore backfires on
their roles as advocates for the Palestinians. These efforts are marked by
awful timing, anti-Semitism, insensitivity, ignorance and spurious arguments.
Did I mention stupidity?
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How exactly does taking a stronger role in this issue de-legitimize the
Presbyterians/Episcopalians? In the little bit I’ve heard of this issue
(mainly, this opinion piece) - I’m actually impressed that such mainstream
denominations have taken a strong view on anything, let alone a strong view on
ending the oppression of the Palestinians.
This is also the first time he accuses the P/E of being anti-semitic.
Anti-semitism, as I understand it, is an ideology of hatred against the Jews,
akin to anti-black racism in the South, etc. That’s a pretty big accusation
against two mainstream, popular Christian denominations. You can’t make an
accusation like that without something to back it up.
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Legitimate criticism can only help Israel. It would serve to pressure the
Israeli government into reversing policies which jeopardize its own citizens.
But if church leaders are trying to help the Palestinians, they have a very
strange way of going about it.
But these advocates for the Palestinians would not recognize a legitimate
argument if it kicked them in the rump.
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An interesting point followed by a random, pointless insult. People who insult
their ideological opponents get no respect from me. It de-legitimizes them.
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The church groups are considering disinvestment at a time when the Israeli
government is attempting to do things right. Israel’s plans to dismantle
settlements will get them out of the Palestinians’ hair, at least in Gaza and
part of the West Bank. That will allow for creation of a de facto Palestinian
state. Isn’t that what the Palestinians and their friends want?
Why don’t the church groups simply work with Israel and the Jewish groups in
the United States to help make this plan a reality? It is a foundation for
the future upon which all parties can build.
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I don’t really think Palenstinians want Israelis to dismantle settlements “at
least in Gaza ... part of the West Bank.” As he words it, Israel’s plan
doesn’t seem that focused, nor intent on actually succeeding. For the record,
the Palestinians want Israeli settlements to be completely dismantled in both
the West Bank and Gaza.
Perhaps the P/E are trying to get Israeli to really step up to the plate and do
something more than dismantle “at least in Gaza?”
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While disinvestment as a pressure tactic is debatable, the church groups
should at least wait until they have discussed their concerns about Israel
with Jewish-American leaders. No indication is given here that they have made
such an effort during the last four years.
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A fair point, but I’d be very suprised to find that there was no communication
between the two camps.
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The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) took themselves out of
the running for believability when they accompanied their disinvestment vote
with their decision to maintain a missionary program aimed at recruiting
Jews.
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Accusing Christians of wanting to be evangelistic? Right, Christians have
always been that way. Don’t be so surprised.
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The Assembly currently supports a messianic church in Plymouth Meeting, a
Philadelphia suburb, which has been accused of attempting to convert Jews to
Christianity. Messianic Judaism is a misnomer because it means its members
are Jews who accept Jesus as their savior, which is literally blasphemy for
both religions.
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I suppose if we take a narrow understanding for each religion, but I’m pretty
sure that there is plenty of ideological room between Presbyterianism and
Judaism for Messianic Judaism. But the best is next.
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Such a movement is brazen anti-Semitism. The very fact that they would
proselytize Jews means that they consider their religion superior to Judaism,
not to mention most other religions. No sophisticated person would be
associated with anything like that, and Presbyterian leaders should know
better.
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OMG!!! Christians think Christianity is better than Judaism!!! I hope there
are no Jews out there who think Judaism is better than Christianity, or Muslims
who think their religion is better than Buddhism, etc etc. This point is so
laughably ludicrous that is makes me laugh! Why would Christians BE Christians
if they didn’t think their religion was better?
And again, the accusation of “brazen” anti-semitism. You don’t love Judaism?
You want to convert us? Then you are a HATE-MONGER!!
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Wrong audience to lecture about “a pretty sorry state” and “collective
punishment.” Jews and other supporters of Israel with a longer memory than
Grieves can recall that the Palestinians were handed a golden opportunity to
create their own state, but they responded by starting a war. That cut short
a liberal prime minister’s political career (that of Ehud Barak) and assured
the election to prime minister of Israel’s own Darth Vader, namely Ariel
Sharon. If Grieves doubts that the Palestinians ever had such a chance for
self-determination, he should read Dennis Ross’s new book, “The Missing
Peace,” which confirms that Yasser Arafat lied about Israel’s final offer for
an independent state.
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Hey, they HAD a chance to have a free state - so this is all the Palestinians
fault! Anything bad that happens to them as a result isn’t our fault, for sure!
But even then, Palestinians had a “golden opportunity to create their own state”
- they responded by starting a way - every single Palestinian made the concious
decision to go to war with a state that has nuclear weapons and jet fighters,
while the Palestinians primarily throw rocks and small grenades. Reading this
chump’s version of things, I’m brought to agree with Grieves. The Israelis ARE
collectively punishing the Palestinians for trying to rise up and fight.
Of course, being acquainted with the issue, I wouldn’t paint it in such
Black-and-white terms. This guy’s opinion is fallacious and jaded. For those
who disagree with him, he accuses them of being anti-semitist. Poor form.
-Lenny
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Message is in Reply To:
 | | Re: ...just one more form of anti-Semitism
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| (...) Posted on October 7, 2004 10:01 PM EST Email this Commentary By BRUCE S. TICKER Location: Philadelphia Those Presbyterians and Episcopalians might as well have kicked and beaten their mutual victim to a pulp while they were at it. No, not (...) (19 years ago, 1-Aug-05, to lugnet.off-topic.debate, FTX)
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