Subject:
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Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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Newsgroups:
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lugnet.off-topic.debate
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Date:
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Thu, 12 Sep 2002 20:38:47 GMT
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Viewed:
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994 times
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"Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> writes:
> In lugnet.off-topic.debate, William R. Ward writes:
> > "Larry Pieniazek" <lpieniazek@mercator.com> writes:
> > > Socialism is thought by some to be a religion (1), are you OK if we ban the
> > > teaching of socialism in public schools? Let's stick to things we know are
> > > true, after all...
> > > 1 - it requires faith in miracles and has no predictive power
> >
> > I don't see what relevance this has to anything I said.
>
> OK. But you're a socialist, right? Since belief that a socialist system can
> actually work is counterfactual, holding such a belief is a kind of religion
> since it requires faith.
By US standards, I suppose I would be called that. By European
standards, I'd probably be considered centrist. But that isn't the
topic currently being discussed.
> > > I'll support not funding religious schools or religious activities in public
> > > schools when I can choose not to *fund* public schools. But as long as I
> > > have to pay, I am going to require hewing a fine line. No Noah murals and no
> > > banning christian clubs on school property either.
> >
> > Why?
>
> Separation of Church and State.
>
> A permanent mural (contrast with an informational exhibit, this was
> decorative) with Noah on it in a public school (we had one (past tense,
> thanks to my wife) in our local elementary) is a State endorsement of a
> particular religion. Not allowed under the constitution.
Good.
> Banning clubs of students from holding meetings, whatever the topic matter
> (christian, Jedi, secular humanist, libertarian, communist, softball, chess,
> Lego, MegaBlocks) is State repression of that particular viewpoint. Not
> allowed under the constitution.
Huh? That's a straw man. The issue is religion, not viewpoint. And
since the school is a part of the State, it needs to be kept separate
from religion.
> This is just a restatement of what was said by Dave! (The 9th circuit was
> right both times for essentially the same reason.)
>
> Note that the mere fact of holding a meeting means that the club is
> consuming resources (and thus money) of the school system, so the point of
> whether the school FUNDS the club is moot, it already does so when it gives
> space.
It's a matter of degrees. Giving money is a much more significant act
than allowing space to be used that would otherwise be sitting idle.
The cost of allowing a group to meet is lost in the noise of the
school's budget; but actively giving money is a different kettle of fish.
> The key point is that the schools are a public good, funded by taxpayers,
> whether those taxpayers think it's a good idea or not (I for one don't)...
> and as such, cannot show any preference for one viewpoint over another.
> Private schools are under no such compunction.
That isn't what the Constitution says. It says Congress (and by
extension, the public school systems) can't give support to any
religion.
--Bill.
--
William R Ward bill@wards.net http://www.wards.net/~bill/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Verbing weirds language. --Calvin
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Message has 1 Reply:
 | | Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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| (...) Or suppress it either. Allowing a club to meet isn't support, but preventing one from meeting is suppression. Unless the school has a policy forbidding all clubs from meeting on school grounds it cannot prevent some clubs (which are otherwise (...) (22 years ago, 13-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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Message is in Reply To:
| | Re: Those stupid liberal judges are at it again!
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| (...) OK. But you're a socialist, right? Since belief that a socialist system can actually work is counterfactual, holding such a belief is a kind of religion since it requires faith. (...) Separation of Church and State. A permanent mural (contrast (...) (22 years ago, 12-Sep-02, to lugnet.off-topic.debate)
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